Managing the shortage: Discolored heating oil in an HDi car?

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Remundo
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by Remundo » 22/10/10, 15:51

Remundo wrote: wrote:
To neutralize all these beautiful people, you have to know organic chemistry and have the necessary products ...


Should this still be possible ... reduce their effect surely but neutralize completely, it is not at all certain that this is possible. The state can be very inventive to avoid being eaten up ...

Go try to make coffee and milk again with a café au lait.
Chemistry has its limits ...

Well, it's not a question of separating the products ... but of attacking them chemically, to break them or change their function / reactivity : Idea:

Finally, it seems that tracer products are not that difficult to "neutralize", in any case to denature ... On the other hand, some will remain in their derived form in the fuel.

After having found the precise structure of the tracers, I gathered my old knowledge of organic chemistry ...

SY124 (also known as Sudan 455) is a benzamine III, comprising an acetal (OCO)
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This acetal can be "cut" from the benzamine part in an acidic medium. There remains a strange acid (comprising the phenylamine) giving various colors according to the pH. It is really the toughest tracer because the amine III is not very reactive.

Furfural is a furan-methanal
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it too can be attacked in an acid medium and by supplying a nucleophile Nu-E (for example an alcohol R-OH), it gives an acetal with chemical properties totally different from furfural.

Finally diphenylamine
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is an amine II which can be denatured by the action of nitrous acid HNO2 (nitrosation): this compound forms an insoluble yellow phase (in principle ...) which can therefore be removed from the fuel. Among the 3 tracers, this one seems to me the weakest.


You don't need a lot of products (quantities) because there are only a few g or mg of these tracers per liter of FOD ...

A priori, I will try to add a little alcohol + nitrous acid.

With a ladle, for 1L of FOD, a few mL of ethanol + a few mL of pure HNO2 ... In my opinion,
1) we should nitrose the diphenylamine (phase to be extracted)
2) split the SY2 in two (or more). It is possible that NO124 groups are substituted on the phenyls ... the red should disappear.
3) furfural will not like: acidity and alcohol should acetalize it

it would be worth trying "for the science". After the FOD obtained is not terrible because of traces of acidity ... After combustion, the HNO2 will be lost in NOx or H2O :P

PS: finally, there is the action of UV on all carbon cycles (cracking of cycles), but I have no idea of ​​the levels of UV radiation necessary, the fuel being rather opaque, UV risks being degraded in heat before properly attacking the phenyl or benzene cycles ...
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Christophe
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by Christophe » 22/10/10, 16:13

Rolalala, he blues me this Remundo!

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We obviously didn't have the same chemistry teachers ... I don't know what you're causing! : Mrgreen:

Speaking of teachers, is that what we teach students? Conquer the Republic? Is it any wonder they're on the street?
: Mrgreen:

ps: put the images on our image host stp :) thanks.
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by Remundo » 22/10/10, 18:59

in fact, the necessary knowledge is taught in math SPE, PC track (Physics Chemistry), or in universities ... if not on strike. : Cheesy:

It's not my specialty, it's quite encyclopedic ... It takes a huge memory and motivation. The "pros" are the graduates of Physical Sciences, Chemistry option, moreover often aggregatedes.

In Physical Option, we also do, but less.

So to come back to our "3 culprits"

La diphenylamine
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Furfural
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Le SY124 alias Yellow 124 or Sudan 455
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by Christophe » 22/10/10, 19:03

Remundo wrote:It's not my specialty, it's quite encyclopedic ... It takes a huge memory and motivation. The "pros" are the graduates of Physical Sciences, Chemistry option, moreover often aggregatedes.


Ah ok you cheated ...

+1 for motivation : Cheesy:

I did math sup spé but in integrated prep ... but never done organic chemistry so sharp ..

ps: thanks for the pictures
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by Remundo » 22/10/10, 19:13

Mmm no I didn't cheat, I took Physical Option 8)

By the way ... Nitrous acid is not commercially available. It is unstable and must be prepared in a mixture. , (hydrochloric acid + sodium nitrite).

Not easy! But I don't see other methods of discoloration. :D
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by Christophe » 22/10/10, 19:14

Yeah well, I think I would find it easier to remember the picchou method: barbecue and cat pee : Mrgreen:

Don't mess around: it's Friday night there!
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by chatelot16 » 22/10/10, 19:17

nitrous acid is unstable and only needs to turn to nitric acid

so next step essential: mix a good dose of caustic soda stir well: mix with water so that all the soda is in the water and separate the fuel

problem there will always be water in the fuel oil

washing with acid then with soda and water is part of the old method of refining petroleum, but ending with a distillation which radically removes water and all non-volatile or too volatile residue
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by Remundo » 22/10/10, 19:22

Quick method of course.

Pichou has its methods ... filtering is long, and not sure that it is radical.

NaNO2 and HCl and ethanol are very common products.

Should try to see if it works ... I had never thought about the question before. Chemically, it is possible.

For 1L of fuel, 10 mL of well concentrated HNO2 and 10 mL of pure ethanol are needed, shake well, then allow to settle.

If an insoluble phase forms, collect it.

The rest can be balanced in a motor.

PS: It is naturally forbidden to denature red fuel and to use it for transport.
I drive on petrol and soon on electricity : Mrgreen:
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by Obamot » 22/10/10, 19:27

Is it possible to do that in your bathtub? (Okay, I'm going out->) : Mrgreen:

... come on, just a super simple thing to slip into the cirterne to neutralize the ODOR please, and not to smoke too much the neighbors (or when we got spoiled with jerry can : Mrgreen: and that we put red by mistake where it was not necessary (needless to say ...) : Lol:
Last edited by Obamot the 22 / 10 / 10, 19: 30, 1 edited once.
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by Christophe » 22/10/10, 19:28

Obamot wrote:Is it possible to do that in your bathtub? (Okay, I'm going out->) : Mrgreen:


A reference to breaking bad? : Mrgreen:
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