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highfly-addict
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by highfly-addict » 02/04/08, 23:04

Arthur_64 wrote:Let us be clear: I am not a fervent defender of GMOs that we are offered. Sterile seeds are taken hostage by farmers (although even with non-sterile seeds, a large majority buy the seeds every year, they have been well disinformed).


HM hm!

You shouldn't take all the farmers for idiots, huh! (And then learn a little too).

Yes, the "sterile" seeds (let's go over the abuse of language, we understand each other : Cheesy: ) are hostage-taking, but do you know what happens if you "have fun" resowing your harvest?

No ? Well the yield and the quality drop vertiginously!

And this for a very simple reason: "non-sterile" seeds (sic) are first generation hybrids (known as F1) which all look alike and which have interesting qualities of their respective parents.
The next generation (F2) unfortunately does not give this beautiful result, we obtain a large variety of individuals whose characteristics are not stable (some look like grandfather, others like grandmother and the majority in between, more or less).
In the lot there will be interesting plants but not for a field production!

Small clarification which I hope will be useful.

edit: By the way, this fact has been fattening seed companies for a long time.
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by Capt_Maloche » 02/04/08, 23:24

you mean that GMOs are already on the circuit?
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by highfly-addict » 03/04/08, 01:21

Capt_Maloche wrote:you mean that GMOs are already on the circuit?


Absolutely not. The term GMO, in principle, is specifically used for organisms whose DNA has been modified by genetic engineering (generally by the addition of gene (s) from another organism).

In the wild, for a given species, the population presents individuals which all resemble each other with small variations. The pressure of natural selection keeps these variations small (otherwise the individual does not reproduce badly or in the case of a disabling mutation or, conversely, reproduces very well and diffuses his mutation in the population if it constitutes an advantage).

Human selection of organisms has consisted over the ages in ensuring that the interesting individuals, carriers of NATURAL and RANDOM mutations, reproduce, even if they lose their hardiness. Man by his action has in some way substituted artificial selection for natural selection.

To preserve the interesting characters, we have thus created the "varieties" (plants) and the "races" (animals). We can assimilate these varieties to subspecies, still fertile among themselves but different morphologically.

F1 hybrids are a cross between two "stable" varieties.

To illustrate the point:

The dog came from the wolf by human selection, initially we kept the most docile individuals, best hunters, good guardians, etc ... and then the interesting characters have evolved over time: aesthetics, size etc ... .
We have come to the current diversity of dog breeds.
And if we cross a husky with a husky, we are sure to have baby huskies (stabilized breed).
But you can also cross a husky with a chihuahua (another stabilized breed) and thus obtain F1 hybrids which will all look alike and will be morphologically "in between".
But if we dare to breed these puppies among themselves then there is the binz! about a quarter of the puppies will look like a husky, another quarter like a chihuahua, and the rest will look "like nothing" (like a cocker spaniel chihuahua with blue eyes, why not).

Here ! And it works the same (with subtleties anyway) for all domesticated organisms. Except GMOs, where the mutation is "directed" (which saves time).

The problem with GMOs, amha, is that we understand neither all the mechanisms of inheritance and the intimate functioning of DNA, nor the very complex interactions between species in an ecosystem.
So a priori, introducing a gene directly into DNA, without knowing the ins and outs, is playing with fire.

And everyone knows that by dint of playing, you end up getting burned.
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by Arthur_64 » 03/04/08, 07:44

However, most farmers are not lobbyed by the FNSEA, chambers of agriculture, etc.

For example, they no longer know how to / want to do cropping and prefer to fertilize at all costs.

And reseeding the 1st generation hybrids is not so problematic in fact (just a lack of homogeneity and lower yield), it just isn't in agreement with the ambient agro-production.
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by nonoLeRobot » 03/04/08, 10:55

And reseeding the 1st generation hybrids is not so problematic in fact (just a lack of homogeneity and lower yield), it just isn't in agreement with the ambient agro-production.


It's off topic, but I wanted to comment:

It's a bit easy, it's the fault of farmers who put their pockets in it (it's well known, farmer is the ideal job to become a billionaire) while most people (may not be you then I hope) think of only one thing, to eat for cheap (even if it means bringing beans from Egypt) in order to save money so that you can go on vaccinations from the other side of the world.

In addition we are very happy to be able to eat our fill, it is not by the fact of the Holy Spirit that since the 70s, agricultural production to explode despite the drastic reduction of farmers and agricultural areas. And as soon as a year is difficult, what is likely to happen more often is higher prices and falling food stocks.

Otherwise there is a union, not the majority but all the same important which arises and opposes these seed problems: http://www.coordinationrurale.fr/
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by gegyx » 03/04/08, 11:28

nonoLeRobot wrote: It's off topic, but I wanted to comment:

: Lol:
It's funny your subject "April Fools"! ...

It has grown well, and is made up of lots of little off subjects ...

That is to say, that there are many things, which need to express themselves, and moods to burst.

Doctor April Fools.
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by Remundo » 03/04/08, 12:58

Capt_Maloche wrote:HOLA! it wobbles over there :D

Either you are a teacher or you are retired to lay as much in such a short time, (I'm going to make friends today : Cheesy: )

or maybe you are already saturated with these GMOs that drive you crazy?

Curiously, I would be more on the side of Rémundo for the human aspect of the management of the country and on the side of my neighbor concerning the precautionary principle: we need a "against power", illegal if necessary to avoid abuses.

What Monsanto does inspires me the deepest aversion, and I don't understand that Brussels allows it: a seedling must not be sterile, period, I am ready to fight for that, it is a capitalist heresy until the endian which can lead us to disaster.


Hi Captain!

Little tease. I have a little time because I do written training for my students who are revising for their engineering competitions. There's a PC nearby and I like econology ... so I'm tempted!

Otherwise, on Monsanto, I believe it operates in a legal vacuum, or when it is not a vacuum, it is inertia ...

And as this multinational is very fast, and without faith or law, it skips all stages without control.

@+
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by bham » 03/04/08, 13:54

Remundo wrote:The New Obs ... Hmm ...
Recently at the origin of the scandal over Sarko's text message to Cécilia, which generated a complaint for “forgery, use of forgery and concealment” filed by the Elysée.

The complaint has been withdrawn.

Remundo wrote:And to put France in the red lantern on GMO research. This means that we will be as bad on the food market in 50 years as we are currently on the industrial market. And then we can really throw up ... foreigners will have a good laugh, Monsanto in mind. By our GMO inactivity, we allow it to extend its tyipic American domination: in Iraq, it's war, and here, an ecological steamroller, another variant of war by food !

Bêêêêêhhhh! I see that the Panurge sheep are not dead. Who tells us that GMOs are THE way to go, from a public and environmental health point of view? from an economic point of view, the question does not arise since we racket people.
And given the evolution of the thinking of EU citizens, see http://www.orange.fr/bin/frame.cgi?u=ht ... orange.fr/ , I suspect that GMOs are not THE way to go. So on this one I would prefer that France remains late, it is already renowned for its gastronomy, perhaps it will be for its healthy and natural products.
On the other hand, given the perversity of the human species, I think it is irresponsible to let it play the game of genes.

Remundo wrote:It is unacceptable at a time when the world population is starving to block any reasonable innovation that increases yields or the quality of crops.

There Remundo, you repeat exactly what the GMO pro said. However, the UN has committed a report showing that organic farming can be enough to feed the entire world population. Organic means without pesticides, without GMOs.
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by Capt_Maloche » 03/04/08, 14:05

highflyaddict wrote: Absolutely not. The term GMO, in principle, is specifically used for organisms whose DNA has been modified by genetic engineering (generally by the addition of gene (s) from another organism).

...

The problem with GMOs, amha, is that we understand neither all the mechanisms of inheritance and the intimate functioning of DNA, nor the very complex interactions between species in an ecosystem.
So a priori, introducing a gene directly into DNA, without knowing the ins and outs, is playing with fire.

And everyone knows that by dint of playing, you end up getting burned.


ok, thanks for the clarification

this is the idea that I have GMOs in the medium and long term, we risk damaging the ecosystem, with all the consequences that it can have on our food.

Therefore, a quarantine test period of several years should be implemented in order to verify their safety before spreading this type of product.
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by Remundo » 03/04/08, 15:49

Hi Bham,

bham wrote:
Remundo wrote:The New Obs ... Hmm ...
Recently at the origin of the scandal over Sarko's text message to Cécilia, which generated a complaint for “forgery, use of forgery and concealment” filed by the Elysée.

The complaint has been withdrawn.


Yes, but for political and communication reasons, but not legal. Privacy has been breached at best, and at worst forgery and forgery of privacy.

Le Nouvel Obs is a pink tea towel every other page ... I prefer the World and especially The Mountain even if it will make you laugh :D

Who tells us that GMOs are THE way to go, from a public and environmental health point of view? from an economic point of view, the question does not arise since we racket people.

Not me. But it is a path to explore among others (organic farming for example ... We need a quality agricultural mix as well as a quality energy mix and diversified.

GMOs are not the devil that some want to describe, nor the holy innocuous plant that others want to exploit for purely mercantile ends.

On the other hand, given the perversity of the human species, I think it is irresponsible to let it play the game of genes.

I agree with you, but "not to let play" does not mean to ban everything. With such reasoning and the principle of precautions at all costs, we would still live in caves without fire ...

There Remundo, you repeat exactly what the GMO pro said. However, the UN has committed a report showing that organic farming can be enough to feed the entire world population. Organic means without pesticides, without GMOs.

Pro GMOs don't just say bullshit, my dear Bham ...
UN paper scraper reports say nothing, but only by omission...

Well then what are they waiting for to do it all without GMO?! ... Ah, that would cost too much and nobody could pay ... They did not put that in their report?

And with a population of 12 billion men, does it still hold?

All this to say that GMOs can be an opportunity to improve yields with less pesticides.

Voili, that's it. Speaking of sheep, we are well shearing wool on the back with fuels ... That's the subject of the discussion right? Bbhhhêêêêêêhhh : Lol:
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