Summer digressions on public debt

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Obamot
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Re: Summer Digressions on Public Debt




by Obamot » 15/08/16, 11:10

eclectron wrote:[...] In exchange for your work (good and service) you get money.
What do you buy with this money? Goods and services. Money is also a good and service in its own right.
What we do not exchange between us, in society, are goods and services using money as an intermediary [...]

Here we are at the reason that pushed me to ask you questions by giving you the impression of beating around the bush, that's the question of money as a "medium of exchange" VS money as "commodity"

It is the commodification of the means which makes us understand the moment when we pass from a means to a goal *
- you buy a stock of 10t of salt (medium)
- you resell it with added value (goal = profit and no longer exclusively a means of exchange: money has become like a "commodity"when he should have kept his exclusive role / status of medium / media.)

Same with, for example: foreign exchange transactions, the purchase of raw materials (coal, oil, uranium), interest on a debt, etc.

This brings a "new" complexity to the equation, of the understanding of the money-debt mechanism. Therefore, at the simply mechanical level, it would not be possible to cancel the debt, because if we did that in such a simplistic way, we would have to go back to the sources of the problem (money = commodity) and then we would have to prohibit any surplus value. and even repay previous capital gains (to restore some equity between all) review and cancel mortgages and mortgage rates and therefore therefore also stop time (and freeze it in prison (?) : Lol: or even necessarily prohibit any new debt since it would be there as a quota "commodity money"like all those which would have preceded, the cancellation of the debt being a debt in itself (lol) proves that it is insoluble : Mrgreen:

We can laugh at wanting to change the system by saying that it would be "so simple to do". But the more we think about it and the more we notice new interlocking and telescoping, and finally when we try to re-invent the wheel, we come (in principle) first to the same conclusions that led to the existing system. (it would be better if it was round ... finally), others from before (much less intelligent than you and I agree : Mrgreen: ) having already worked on various options to the system well before us ...

It's badly crossed for cancellation! : Twisted:


* (there to consider money as "commodity")
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Re: Summer Digressions on Public Debt




by Ahmed » 15/08/16, 13:23

It is excessive to consider that the cancellation of the debt would constitute another debt and many debts were seen to be extinguished in this way; this is also part of the normal process of functioning of the system: when an entrepreneur places his capital (or that of others) in the manufacture of a commodity in order to transform it into a higher sum, it happens that the commodity does not find a taker, or on conditions much lower than those expected, therefore, the investor never returns to his initial funds.

On the question of money-goods, I remind you that Marx spoke of it as "the general equivalent of all commodities"; money therefore represents the quintessence of the commodity, his true nature, stripped of the tinsel of utility and its ancient forms of existence. It also clearly reveals the purpose of the system of accumulation of abstract value, which is also more and more visible in this current phase, during which the production of the financial industry tends more and more to be substitute for the production of real goods, in an attempt to overcome the growing impossibility of fulfilling previous operating conditions.
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Re: Summer Digressions on Public Debt




by eclectron » 15/08/16, 18:31

If we want to be complicated, it is, if we want to be simple, it is, I'm not worried about the debt:
... A few days earlier in a column published by the daily Liberation, Thomas Piketty sharply criticized the French and German governments which are carrying out neoliberal policies and which are helping to impose anti-social measures on countries like Greece or Spain name of debt repayment. Thomas Piketty writes: “The palm of amnesia goes to Germany, with France in faithful second. In 1945, these two countries had a public debt exceeding 200% of the GDP. By 1950, it had dropped to less than 30%. What happened, would we suddenly have released the budget surpluses to pay off such a debt? Obviously not: it was through inflation and outright repudiation that Germany and France got rid of their debt in the last century. If they had patiently tried to generate surpluses of 1% or 2% of GDP per year, then we would still be there, and it would have been much more difficult for post-war governments to invest in growth. However, these two countries have been explaining since 2010-2011 to the countries of southern Europe that their public debt will have to be paid back to the last euro. It is a short-sighted selfishness, because the new budgetary treaty adopted in 2012 under pressure from Germany and France, which is organizing austerity in Europe (with an excessively rapid reduction of deficits and a system of automatic sanctions totally ineffective), led to a general recession in the eurozone ”| 2 |.

source: http://www.cadtm.org/Thomas-Piketty-et-la-dette

Only physical reality can be worrying: scarcity of resources, especially oil which is irreplaceable to this day as soon as wireless mobility is needed!
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Re: Summer Digressions on Public Debt




by Obamot » 15/08/16, 19:13

Sorry but I get that out of your Eclectron cartoon : roll:

It is useless to make new digressions by pretending simplicity ...!

The simplest representation of the subject is there, below nothing simpler:

Debit Credit.jpeg
Debit Credit.jpeg (15.82 KiB) Consulted 3268 times


As soon as you get out of it ... and even if you stay there: it's the same. Like it or not, a sum from one of the columns will go to the other and vice versa (I mean change places simultaneously). But if we want to get out of this, there will inevitably be something of the order of what I described above. Even if you call on Gaston, Pieds Nickelés, the ECB, the FED or Mickey: it will be the same. : Cheesy:

Another example is in agriculture, here is for "1" product, which amounts to production and the rest which goes to "parasitization":

figure17_cle8898b3.jpg


(and even, the primary sector is not 11,6% but between 3% and 5% here ...)

Thus from the moment there is the slightest "temporal telescoping", in our time, we cannot simplify more, and yet ....

Otherwise a good war! : Cheesy: ? And it went away as before ....

Well, well .... Sorry also Ahmed, if you have a debt, you cannot erase it so easily without there being a loser (s).
The paradox of the debt erased is that it is those who have the least virtue who are "relieved": thus erasing the debt would mean encouraging those who have had the worst behavior in the system: CQFD. It is not fair (I am not talking in the case of widespread looting or emerging countries that we have of course exploited ...) and one more inequality, a debt erased will not have the same consequences for everyone.Clearing the debt would be a big mess and it will especially not have an educational role, quite the contrary.

The main interest of eliminating the debt would be to precisely review the principle of money-debt and get out of it. But the first to benefit from it and who would not ask for better, would be those who currently have "the keys to the house" (the world of finance). Do you want banknotes and coins to be removed everywhere and all over the world? Welcome to Hell.
Last edited by Obamot the 15 / 08 / 16, 19: 42, 2 edited once.
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Re: Summer Digressions on Public Debt




by Ahmed » 15/08/16, 19:41

Obamot, you write:
Sorry too Ahmed, if you have a debt, you cannot erase it so easily without there being a loser.

I never claimed that there was never a loser, it is even the opposite which is specified in my last message ... However, when the debts continue to be honored, it is rarely the contractors who reimburse (at state level).

Eclectron, you write:
Only physical reality can be worrying ...

On this point I refer you to my article. The system, as alluded to, comes up against two much more serious limits than the physical limit and I can do no better than quote myself:
I recall that the internal limit results from the combination of the fall in the unit price of goods and the ever smaller share of human labor in their production => fall in the rate of profit. The logical limit appeared more recently, due to the untenable nature of the internal limit and this led, contrary to the usual functioning, to accumulate the abstract value from a putative work which could only be realized in a future more than improbable… I mention this last phenomenon for methodological reasons and also because it sheds light (if one looks at it seriously) a usual zone of great confusion on the role of the debt and the debt. financial industry.

The logical limit has led to speak of "reverse capitalism" *, since instead of capital investing in an industrial process to produce increased fictitious value, it is fictitious value that comes to the aid of operating capital, as soon as the latter has become incapable of reproducing ...

*Lohoff et Trenkles, in "The great devaluation".
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Re: Summer Digressions on Public Debt




by Obamot » 15/08/16, 19:45

... yes, but in terms of accounts, if a debt is deleted, it will not be deleted (that would be an impossible operation in accounting), it will be transferred to an ad hoc account: for example it will remain in an account forever "profit and loss"(and the reverse count for the / s"recipient / s"). There is only one body that can reset the counters to zero (except if the creditor does not initiate proceedings) and that is the Bankruptcy / Debt Office. It will auction off what is left and Too bad for the listed creditors. Needless to say that in real estate it is the vulture bankers who await you at the turn ... Not rare are the cases where an auction takes place and a bank agent buys the property for a bite of bread.

And besides, it is to be hoped that this does not happen, because fraudulent staging could multiply ...
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Re: Summer Digressions on Public Debt




by Ahmed » 15/08/16, 20:09

It is a fairly formal administrative detail. When a company goes bankrupt, what remains of assets is sold off and priority creditors are used, while cheated companies are deprived of the profit and the principal ...
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Re: Summer Digressions on Public Debt




by chatelot16 » 15/08/16, 21:03

money is essential to facilitate exchanges ... without money there would only be bartering ... whoever knows how to do something could only exchange it with someone who has something useful in trading. .. everyone would be stuck in their corner ... this is also what happens when there is not enough money in circulation in a country

there are rich people who accumulate money in a sterile way and do not leave enough for those who need it: an efficient government knows how to do it: printing more tickets is the best tax on fortune! it devalues ​​the money that some raise, and it circulates it for those who work

when a sovereign country creates just the right currency there is no debt

when there is a currency common to several countries that deprives the countries of their power to print banknotes, I saw it in Africa with the CFA franc at the time when we started talking about the euro, and I told me the euro will be like the CFA franc! an unmanageable trick that will deprive countries of their means! and alas the future proved me right! the euro brings the big countries back to the state of underdeveloped countries: a big country prints banknotes ... an underdeveloped country goes into debt!
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Re: Summer Digressions on Public Debt




by Obamot » 16/08/16, 12:04

I like what you wrote Chatelot, but that only reinforces the idea that we should not cancel the debt if we aim for fairness. Otherwise could this thread become a style exercise for amateur economists?

At my humble level I see three points that it would be well to take into account when it comes to "abstract values":
- it is the correct and real evaluation of the public debt, excluding inflationary drift, since that masks its real scale which is not reflected in the resulting abstraction (I think especially of dollars, but other currencies do not should not be outdone) so in% of GDP what is the real debt excluding inflation? (Accumulated debt interest added to interest interest and over its entire duration.)
- and then if we speak of "abstract values", part of this abstraction lies both in the game of the plane of speculative finance, but also in the "true cost of goods", part of which depends on the merry-go-round. For example, goods estimated with regard to raw materials, at the real cost of the geological time it took to constitute these "materials" (whether energy or other minerals for that matter, because and not, this is not "free" no offense to Jancovici, it is he who considers it ex nihilo, it is not the same.)
- finally to make things worse, still in the register of this well-regarded concept of "abstract values", it would be necessary to add the share of the programmed obsolescence of objects, since this is part of the "abstract" dimension of denial, and completely joins the idea of ​​abstraction (if not of value, and in this case of its confiscation.)

Indeed, it seems to me that since the "value" of objects is confiscated by "embedded obsolescence", it is a form of debt. And as it seems difficult to me to erase what has already been confiscated [...] it would still be well to be able to quantify what has been withdrawn which constitutes a depreciation of purchasing power (if not an embryo of economic depression or something ...).

It reminds me of these words of "Uncle":

François Mitterand wrote:[...] I say it to the countries of the North, to them who are industrialized in the North and who can influence the economic evolution of the world, it is also - and they do not know enough - it is also their own future which is in question, their own destiny, they would risk exhausting the own sources of their wealth if they did not understand that the world has become a shrunken planet and that the terms of trade engage every man, every woman, every producer, every consumer on earth. If we were not careful, forgive me for stating such obvious facts, but when these obvious facts do not seem to be understood, they must be repeated, it is the whole world that sinks into crisis:
Everything that changes, everything that changes somewhere in the world has repercussions elsewhere in a drag, a chain of successive reactions and adaptations. And no one is immune [...]


For industrialized countries to cancel the debt? What a denial.
Already we would have to calculate the extent of the denial.
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Re: Summer Digressions on Public Debt




by moinsdewatt » 16/08/16, 14:04

eclectron wrote: S ......

Only physical reality can be worrying: scarcity of resources, especially oil which is irreplaceable to this day as soon as wireless mobility is needed!
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We have found the answer since.

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