The subject had already been discussed on the forum, but I thank you for having created this specific topic or the technical reflections fuse.
both have addressed the issues of focus and history that have seen other techniques replace this solution using animal mechanical force by the steam engine (locomobiles) quickly followed by the electromotive force, the farmers s 'massively equipped with electric motors for many jobs within the farm, and by gasoline and diesel engines.
The trépigneuses, certainly deserve some further development ...
In the video of your link, we see one using hydraulic pumps and motors. I think that a realization on generator and electric motor would be preferable because it would be simpler, with a small battery buffer, to smooth its operation and to optimize the effort of the horse which must toil more, for example when the hydraulic jack of the splitter bute on a buche too resistant ...
This could increase the mechanical performance of the treater and reduce the fatigue of the animal, see musculoskeletal disorders that may appear in the long term.
The other question concerns the overall performance of the system of feeding the horse to mechanical energy restored ...
I do not have any figures on the question, but all the experts agree that this yield is rather poor, especially because the digestive system of the horse is not the most effective.
It goes without saying that to imagine making dog trotters (sledges) would be worse, dogs being carnivorous, the ecological balance of their diet discrediting them.
What an interesting topic to dig up for numbers to compare with other solutions.
Natural energy that yearns!
- Grelinette
- Econologue expert
- posts: 2007
- Registration: 27/08/08, 15:42
- Location: Provence
- x 272
citro wrote:...
I do not have any figures on the question, but all the experts agree that this yield is rather poor, especially because the digestive system of the horse is not the most effective.
...
Is it reasonable to analyze the performance of a chain going back to the digestion of the animal? ...
By pushing the reasoning, one must then ask where the hay comes from, how was it grown, etc.
The fact is that the horse has some qualities to help the man in his tasks (strength, docility, beauty, wisdom, ..., beauty and wisdom being subjective but important criteria), and if we focus on go back to the intestinal transit, we may conclude that we must first create hybrid horses more disgesto-performance!
Let's start by answering the first question:
Sloping treadmill with free horse, or horizontal treadmill with horse drawn to a fixed point?
Then, actually comes the question of whether it is better todirectly exploit the mechanical energy produced by the trépigneuse, or convert this energy into electricity to consume directly and / or store in batteries?
NB: I add that if from our discussion spring innovative ideas to improve the trépigneuse, we could file a patent collaborative ...
0 x
Project of the horse-drawn-hybrid - The project econology
"The search for progress does not exclude the love of tradition"
"The search for progress does not exclude the love of tradition"
Grelinette wrote:
Is it reasonable to analyze the performance of a chain going back to the digestion of the animal? ...
By pushing the reasoning, one must then ask where the hay comes from, how was it grown, etc.
Is it reasonable not to ask it ??? [except from the assumption: "I want to have a horse, because I love horses; and from there, I don't count!"]
Let me explain :
a) hay is the result of the capture of solar energy by a meadow ... In a given place, a given area will give me "a certain" amount of hay - it depends on the weather, the richness of the soil, etc ... representing a certain amount of energy.
b) I can therefore "use" this energy (originally solar) through different "systems":
1) the horse and his equipment
2) burn the hay and pass, for example, by a Stirling engine (a type of external combustion engines)
3) wet the hay and methanize [which would be silly, because in this case, I would ensile it without drying it and I would put this silage in the digester] and see what I can do with the gas ...
Unless we admit that energy is so abundant that we can afford to waste it, not asking ourselves the question of performance would, in my opinion, be an error:
a) choosing the least efficient system would be wasting
b) it would take the risk to see it disappear quickly in favor of the most efficient technique ... [historically, it is always the most efficient machines that have replaced the previous ones: the animal replaced the man, then machines animals ... on a background of almost given energy = oil!]
Again, apart from any emotional consideration - the horse, the most noble conquest of man, etc.
0 x
It is necessary to consider the global balance sheet, but with relevance.
When you have a horse, for various activities, expanding the scope of your tasks is logical if you have the prerequisites that are the space and time to perform these tasks.
If the horse is an animal never grazing and fed with hay or imported foreign food, the question of the balance sheet is worth asking ...
For the collaborative patent, its justification resides in the profitability of the investment ... Any research procedure starts from this postulate, the hope that the return on investment exists and is fast.
Let's be clear, people who have ideas (and who complain about being "stolen") are legion. But having an idea is not worth anything, "not even a €", what is valuable is to carry it to its application. We have seen "bad ideas" invade the market and good ideas never come out of the drawers, often until they are outdated (I had a few).
It seems to me more useful to develop than to patent.
Patenting is more the capitalist logic that aims to build a rent rather than provide an innovation.
When you have a horse, for various activities, expanding the scope of your tasks is logical if you have the prerequisites that are the space and time to perform these tasks.
If the horse is an animal never grazing and fed with hay or imported foreign food, the question of the balance sheet is worth asking ...
For the collaborative patent, its justification resides in the profitability of the investment ... Any research procedure starts from this postulate, the hope that the return on investment exists and is fast.
Let's be clear, people who have ideas (and who complain about being "stolen") are legion. But having an idea is not worth anything, "not even a €", what is valuable is to carry it to its application. We have seen "bad ideas" invade the market and good ideas never come out of the drawers, often until they are outdated (I had a few).
It seems to me more useful to develop than to patent.
Patenting is more the capitalist logic that aims to build a rent rather than provide an innovation.
0 x
- chatelot16
- Econologue expert
- posts: 6960
- Registration: 11/11/07, 17:33
- Location: Angouleme
- x 264
what is the point ? a manege or the horse turns in circles is much simpler, and can be achieved without any friction and good performance ... only defect is cumbersome because it takes enough diameter not to take a turn too tight
to make the horse walk without collar it would be possible to make a large squirrel cage adapted to the size of the horse: when the horse is moving forward it is placed at the slope that is needed, at the bottom of the wheel or it is horizontal when it there is no power, and goes up or there is more slope when it forces: simple but cumbersome seen the big diameter
the trepigneuse requires a much more complicated mechanics with much more cause of friction, unless a very luxurious realization
the harvester will cost more than a gasoline engine of the same power consumption of gasoline for a few years included
for me, you should see the trepigneuse only as a fun experience
to make the horse walk without collar it would be possible to make a large squirrel cage adapted to the size of the horse: when the horse is moving forward it is placed at the slope that is needed, at the bottom of the wheel or it is horizontal when it there is no power, and goes up or there is more slope when it forces: simple but cumbersome seen the big diameter
the trepigneuse requires a much more complicated mechanics with much more cause of friction, unless a very luxurious realization
the harvester will cost more than a gasoline engine of the same power consumption of gasoline for a few years included
for me, you should see the trepigneuse only as a fun experience
0 x
- Grelinette
- Econologue expert
- posts: 2007
- Registration: 27/08/08, 15:42
- Location: Provence
- x 272
chatelot16 wrote:for me, you should see the trepigneuse only as a fun experience
Pa so sure.
The trépigneuse is part of the return of the use of the horse for small farms (eg amap) and in the movement and the desire to get out of the oil that drives these farms.
In agriculture today there is no alternative to the thermal tractor (no electric machine), and the draft horse represents a solution from the point of view of the purchase price (between 1000 and 2000 €) and maintenance, even if it requires daily maintenance, given the energy it represents.
To return to the trépigneuse, given its size (that of a small trailer), and ease of implementation (it is installed, plugs the tool and installs the horse), it is finally quite versatile and very convenient for many static agricultural tasks.
For example, after mowing a grain field with the horse, the treadmill can operate a machine to separate the grain, then bale the straw or hay. Or in skidding, after having taken out the trunks of cut trees, they can be debited on the spot.
In these typical configurations, a large carousel or wheel type hamster are not possible.
To return to the question:
Is it better to turn mechanical energy into electricity (dynamo, battery) instead of directly connecting a tool to a trupper's power take-off?,
Given the efficiency of a dynamo (80%) and an electric motor (80%), ie a dynamo-motor overall efficiency of approximately 60%, a direct recovery of the mechanical energy produced seems more appropriate.
Not to mention that from a logistical point of view, it is easier to move the mechanical transmission (gimbal, machine or belt) than production equipment (dynamo), storage (battery), and restitution (electric motor).
That being said, it is more of an intellectual exercise to think about the possible improvements of the trépigneuses than to convince oneself that it is the tool of the century!
0 x
Project of the horse-drawn-hybrid - The project econology
"The search for progress does not exclude the love of tradition"
"The search for progress does not exclude the love of tradition"
- chatelot16
- Econologue expert
- posts: 6960
- Registration: 11/11/07, 17:33
- Location: Angouleme
- x 264
there is no general answer, you have to know what horsepower you can do, and how much power you need for a machine
if the power required by the machine is low for a long time it is a pity that the horse works permanently: it will get tired for nothing: the power lost to move his body being higher than the useful power: it can be more effective than the horse works a good shot to charge a battery and then rest
when you count efficiency of engine and dynamo you forget to count the yield of the battery, which is not glorious, whereas motor and dynamo can be better than 80%
the battery is justified only if the power demanded by the machine is unsuited to the power of the horse: therefore different operating time
the trepnaker seems to me very complicated to achieve with sufficient quality not to have too much loss ... to make the tests instructive manege is simpler to achieve ... the problem of doing something more practical as the trepneuse does not ask that if you get a useful result with the manege
but if it is to cut wood, it is easier to put the wood waste in a gas generator that will turn an explosion engine, and let the horse do the stains or it has the advantage
if the power required by the machine is low for a long time it is a pity that the horse works permanently: it will get tired for nothing: the power lost to move his body being higher than the useful power: it can be more effective than the horse works a good shot to charge a battery and then rest
when you count efficiency of engine and dynamo you forget to count the yield of the battery, which is not glorious, whereas motor and dynamo can be better than 80%
the battery is justified only if the power demanded by the machine is unsuited to the power of the horse: therefore different operating time
the trepnaker seems to me very complicated to achieve with sufficient quality not to have too much loss ... to make the tests instructive manege is simpler to achieve ... the problem of doing something more practical as the trepneuse does not ask that if you get a useful result with the manege
but if it is to cut wood, it is easier to put the wood waste in a gas generator that will turn an explosion engine, and let the horse do the stains or it has the advantage
0 x
- Grelinette
- Econologue expert
- posts: 2007
- Registration: 27/08/08, 15:42
- Location: Provence
- x 272
chatelot16 wrote:but if it is to cut wood, it is easier to put the wood waste in a gas generator that will turn an explosion engine, and let the horse do the stains or it has the advantage
Reasoning and technical considerations must always be considered with the environment in which the technique is implemented.
It is possible that a gasifier gives a better overall theoretical yield on paper (or on the forum econology) and that it is more advantageous in some cases.
But in this case it is necessary to imagine a skidding yard in the middle of the forest: horses are put in place by leaders to take the trunks out of the woods, the working conditions and the reliefs are difficult which do not facilitate the transport of waste to the gasifier, not to mention the risk of fire or the transport of the machine on site, these remarks also valid for harvesting work in the middle of summer in the middle of very dry fields.
Add: in any case thank you Chatelot for your comments that have inspired me to know more about the gasifier!
Here is an interesting video on starting a gasifier: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XWROJkqRSB4
It's still a hell of a mess this machine!
0 x
Project of the horse-drawn-hybrid - The project econology
"The search for progress does not exclude the love of tradition"
"The search for progress does not exclude the love of tradition"
Not a bazard..a gas plant ...
Concerning the trepigneuse ... It will have to bring it on the spot to your yard of debardage ... And frankly it does not seem to be very light like construction ...
Ask Nenuphar what he thinks of the trepneuse ... I think he does not look forward to
Concerning the trepigneuse ... It will have to bring it on the spot to your yard of debardage ... And frankly it does not seem to be very light like construction ...
Ask Nenuphar what he thinks of the trepneuse ... I think he does not look forward to
0 x
The only thing safe in the future. It is that there may chance that it conforms to our expectations ...
- Grelinette
- Econologue expert
- posts: 2007
- Registration: 27/08/08, 15:42
- Location: Provence
- x 272
Macro wrote:Ask Nenuphar what he thinks of the trepneuse ... I think he does not look forward to
What a dear friend!
The trépigneuses seen on the videos are made largely of wood and, equipped with wheels, can be towed like a trailer behind the cart to go to the building site!
As for the horse, in return for consideration, caresses, sweet words and carrots, he will be most happy to satisfy his owner by offering a few strides on the trépigneuse.
Moreover, when I do not have time to hitch the big water lily, he stamps with impatience, passes his discontent to walk in a circle along his park and strives to move his trough to attract attention . Conversely, as soon as he sees me leave the carriage or a tool to which I am going to harness, he neighs (I think of satisfaction) and wait for me at the park gate!
... and I wonder if I set up a stationary trépigneuse in his park, maybe he'd go out and let off steam: we'd see at once, and at any time of day and night, the intensity of the bulbs in the house increase!
Maybe even, with a little training, we could shout to him through the bathroom window: "Water lily, can you go for a trot on the treadmill: I take a shower and I don't have enough pressure! ... "
(Did you know that there are drinking troughs that cows themselves use to get water!)
0 x
Project of the horse-drawn-hybrid - The project econology
"The search for progress does not exclude the love of tradition"
"The search for progress does not exclude the love of tradition"
-
- Similar topics
- Replies
- views
- Last message
-
- 119 Replies
- 33742 views
-
Last message by Obamot
View the latest post
05/03/23, 14:27A subject posted in the forum : Fossil fuels: oil, gas, coal and nuclear electricity (fission and fusion)
-
- 1719 Replies
- 281149 views
-
Last message by Obamot
View the latest post
11/03/24, 11:42A subject posted in the forum : Fossil fuels: oil, gas, coal and nuclear electricity (fission and fusion)
-
- 2 Replies
- 3488 views
-
Last message by moinsdewatt
View the latest post
27/10/18, 21:48A subject posted in the forum : Fossil fuels: oil, gas, coal and nuclear electricity (fission and fusion)
-
- 2 Replies
- 6712 views
-
Last message by Christophe
View the latest post
13/02/17, 23:30A subject posted in the forum : Fossil fuels: oil, gas, coal and nuclear electricity (fission and fusion)
-
- 2 Replies
- 4586 views
-
Last message by Christophe
View the latest post
17/07/20, 23:33A subject posted in the forum : Fossil fuels: oil, gas, coal and nuclear electricity (fission and fusion)
Go back to "Fossil energies: oil, gas, coal and nuclear electricity (fission and fusion)"
Who is online ?
Users browsing this forum : No registered users and 222 guests