4e generation nuclear reactor

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moinsdewatt
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by moinsdewatt » 27/08/12, 16:26

Cuicui wrote:
moinsdewatt wrote:All this is completely speculative.
We do not know anything about the US program on Z-pinch.
Le Department of Energy United States says nothing above.
So it's not worth the delirium.

I am not interested in the US program, but the French program, currently down, the credits being unnecessarily monopolized by ITER and MEGAJOULES.


:?:
Which French program is currently down?
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by Cuicui » 27/08/12, 16:33

moinsdewatt wrote:Which French program is currently down?

To effectively study z-pinch, a new civilian-run Z-machine would have to be built. Price: 200 x cheaper than ITER. SPHINX, the French Z-machine (in Gramat, in the Lot) once ahead of its time, lacks power and speed, and is currently in the hands of the army.
Last edited by Cuicui the 27 / 08 / 12, 17: 02, 2 edited once.
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by sen-no-sen » 27/08/12, 16:39

Cuicui wrote:Uranium fission or fossil fuel nuclear power plants + renewable energies already produce a kind of unlimited energy since it exceeds our needs. It doesn't have to make us wasteful.


I think you missed an episode if not the entire season!
Waste is an integral part of our way of life.
Despite the efforts we make on a daily basis, the fact remains that the very structure of our society is a mess.

"Green" or not when you buy any product, for example a packet of cake, you automatically generate waste (500kg per French person / year), whether you like it or not.


A big screen at home when the view begins to fall is not necessarily a luxury. This could be done more economically with a miniature overhead projector or other process still to be invented.


Sorry but it is indeed a luxury.


Humans can admit their mistakes, use their cars less if they want to breathe cleaner air or waste less time in traffic jams or simply save money, eat less meat or use less pesticides when they realize that their behavior has more disadvantages than advantages.


Recognizing your mistakes is good, but you must not repeat them by pushing the knife deeper into the wound.


I didn't understand why you think the electricity produced by the Z-pinch power plants should be cheap. Could you explain to me?


Nuclear power is currently one of the cheapest sources of electricity (artificially because the cost is passed on to future generations).
In the perspective of a clean thermo-nuclear, with unlimited reserves on a human scale, why the price of electricity would it be expensive?
Otherwise, if it is expensive, how would it allow poor Africans to regreen their deserts? And so how would it be a response to global problems?

My opinion is that thermo-nuclear will only be a means in the short term to maintain the omnipotence of lobbies and dominance blocs and their stranglehold on the world ... without changing any social and ecological problems.
I do not think that Greenpeace is the promoter of such a project, I imagine that the CEA and Areva would take care of it.

In the eventuality in the longer term of a dissemination of this technology on a global scale, it is a safe bet that it serves bellicose interests and does not cause conflicts that are difficult to control.
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by Cuicui » 27/08/12, 16:53

sen-no-sen wrote:I do not think that Greenpeace is the promoter of such a project, I imagine that the CEA and Areva would take care of it.
In the eventuality in the longer term of a dissemination of this technology on a global scale, it is a safe bet that it serves bellicose interests and does not cause conflicts that are difficult to control.

It's your opinion, it's not mine. Of which act.
For me, the comfort of older people is not a luxury. If a bigger screen allows them to keep going on the Net, it is not money thrown away. But you are probably not old enough to understand it yet.
I'm interested in civilian nuclear power, not in techniques hijacked by the military, for whom Z-pinch is probably already put in the museum by the development of magnetically confined anti-matter. If we wanted to exterminate humans, conventional means are already largely sufficient.
If we wanted to take the military into account, we would never do anything.
My concern is to generate energy in polluting. To desalinate seawater, I prefer Areva to install a non-polluting nuclear power plant than a radio-harmful one.
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by sen-no-sen » 27/08/12, 17:25

Cuicui wrote:It's your opinion, it's not mine. Of which act.
For me, the comfort of older people is not a luxury. If a bigger screen allows them to keep going on the Net, it is not money thrown away. But you are probably not old enough to understand it yet.

A larger screen ok, but a panoramic panel no, glasses are enough ...

I am interested in civilian nuclear power, not in techniques diverted by the military, for whom Z-pinch is probably already put in the museum by the development of magnetically confined anti-matter. If we wanted to exterminate humans, conventional means are already largely sufficient.

Civil nuclear and military nuclear power are historically linked, this is also the case with the ZR machine which is for the moment only a purely military project, the rest is only pure speculation.

My concern is to generate energy in polluting. To desalinate seawater, I prefer Areva to install a non-polluting nuclear power plant than a radio-harmful one.


If you are interested in seawater desalination, you are more interested in greenhouse mangrove projects, or vortex towers ...
With the latter we could simultaneously produce fresh water, salt, and energy, without any military recovery.
But hey that's off topic.
http://www.centrale-au-coeur.centraliens.net/IMG/pdf/ProjetGreenWater_21_09_07.pdf
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by Cuicui » 27/08/12, 20:57

sen-no-sen wrote:A larger screen ok, but a panoramic panel no, glasses are enough ...
Civil nuclear and military nuclear power are historically linked, this is also the case with the ZR machine which is for the moment only a purely military project, the rest is only pure speculation.
If you are interested in seawater desalination, you are more interested in greenhouse mangrove projects, or vortex towers ...
With the latter we could simultaneously produce fresh water, salt, and energy, without any military recovery.
But hey that's off topic.
http://www.centrale-au-coeur.centraliens.net/IMG/pdf/ProjetGreenWater_21_09_07.pdf

ZR-machine is not a project. It is fully operational. It made it possible to reach 8 billion degrees.
I do not see anything in your speech which makes it possible to put an end to the fission plants. Setting the bar too high is a good way to maintain the status quo. The uranium lobby says thank you.
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by Ahmed » 27/08/12, 22:31

Sen-no-sen, thank you for your relevant contributions which save me a lot of fatigue!
I approve en bloc, except spelling mistakes! :D
Just a note, you write:
"The always more" has also become a powerful engine of social exclusion ...

This is true, but it also works the other way around: social differentiation is the goal that is pursued and achieved by means of "always more" ...; "The always more" would have no meaning without a comparison with the others.
As with Protestants, social status is the sign of election.

A giant flat screen et community, would possibly correspond to a certain functionality, but the fact of having it exclusively endows it with a completely different meaning.

There is a striking correlation between this phenomenon of individual overbidding (albeit linked to the collective) and the macroeconomic aspect of a system that is condemned to accumulation for the sake of accumulation: probably a sort of irrational but coherent adaptation. ...
Energy and economy are intimately linked, the tragedy is that its control does not arise from any possible transcendence * since the economy operates under the aegis of a false transcendence, or, if you like, of a self. -transcendence.
In current social forms, there is no hope that abundant energy will be used for destructive purposes.

* The transcendence is a metaphysical notion which makes it possible to judge in relation to considerations of another nature, superior to the object of the judgment.
Here, energy is a means that should be appreciated according to the desirable ends it achieves, and not simply possible ends.
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by Cuicui » 28/08/12, 00:06

Ahmed wrote:Sen-no-sen, thank you for your relevant contributions which save me a lot of fatigue!

Philosophy is all well and good, but I don't quite see how to use it, in practice, to put an end to fission reactors.
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by sen-no-sen » 28/08/12, 12:54

Cuicui wrote:
Ahmed wrote:Sen-no-sen, thank you for your relevant contributions which save me a lot of fatigue!

Philosophy is all well and good, but I don't quite see how to use it, in practice, to put an end to fission reactors.


On the contrary, by a thorough analysis, and by a rational and impartial reasoning, it quickly appears to us solutions to the problems posed.

If we analyze the nuclear issue, without entering into a "nucleophobic" type ideological debate, it appears historically that this technology - originally military - has become industrial following the oil shocks of 1973 and 79 .

Civil nuclear power was therefore born in a context of growth (end of the “glorious thirties”) and served as a palliative for the lack of oil, the undisputed and indisputable energy of growth.


It appears that nuclear has served, serves, and will serve an ideology, that of exponential growth (I add exponential, because no character in the political-economic sphere has indicated when it should end.)

Given the gigantism of infrastructures, nuclear power has always been thought of as a tool for mass production in order to force-feed our insatiable economy, indeed, the pocket nuclear reactor for individuals, is hardly possible given the risks that presents this type of installation.

By extrapolating into the future it is not difficult to see that all nuclear programs Next generation follow this logic of growth.
From the Marcoule G1 pilot reactor producing 2MW of electricity, we switched to the EPR and its 1600MW and DEMO (the pre-industrial phase derived from ITER) "" should "" produce between 2000 and 4000 MW!

By extrapolating now on the possible development of a magnetic necking reactor, I do not see how this technology would escape this logic of growth?

There appear to be two things to take seriously into account:

1) Fossil and mining energies (oil, gas, coal, uranium and derivatives) have allowed the emergence and continuity of industrial society, and those due to their capacity to provide energy in gigantic quantities.
Yet its technologies have the consequences of producing pollution and eventual catastrophes, and presents limits related to their supplies .... yet we continue to use them until they dry up and those despite the damage caused.

2) Taking into account point 1, and imagining now that we have an unlimited source of energy on our scale, by what means should our actions cease?
You do not wean an alcoholic by giving him more alcohol!

So in summary, to put an end to fission reactors (among others), it is necessary to start by reorienting our objectives towards a diminishing society.
An example: before the development of civil nuclear power, France was one of the most advanced countries in the field of bioclimatic housing, energy in abundance has largely served this cause.
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by sen-no-sen » 28/08/12, 13:08

Ahmed wrote:Sen-no-sen, thank you for your relevant contributions which save me a lot of fatigue!
I approve en bloc, except spelling mistakes!


Me doing spelling fools! : Mrgreen:


"The always more" has also become a powerful engine of social exclusion ...


In fact when I said that I was thinking particularly of kids at school.
From the moment a new gadget appears (eg: cell phone) there are always those excluded (because parents do not have the means or do not want to provide their children with it), this is obviously one example among so many others...


This is true, but it also works the other way around: social differentiation is the goal that is pursued and achieved by means of "always more" ...; "The always more" would have no meaning without a comparison with the others.


Absolutely, hence my point above.

In current social forms, there is no hope that abundant energy will be used for destructive purposes.

Didn't mean to say constructive purposes rather? : Mrgreen:
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