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Kyos
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by Kyos » 07/11/07, 10:38

DELAIR wrote:Yes, frankly, self-construction means riding without brakes .... I didn’t say skydiving without a parachute ... : Mrgreen:
Without a doubt, in our current world, with all our certainties. And yet, self-construction has been in place for a long time. It is still practiced on a large scale in part of the world, and also in France.

I'm not saying it's easy, but possible. Especially within the framework of a "common" construction, ie with several but not "collective".
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by AIR » 07/11/07, 18:40

Yes ... that's why our state is getting poor!
That the small association of a few causes others to lose jobs and jobs and also resources for the State which is you, which is I who are all of us.
But that can seem angelic and naive ...

But if your job was to build houses, what would you think?
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by bham » 07/11/07, 19:29

DELAIR wrote:Yes ... that's why our state is getting poor!
That the small association of a few causes others to lose jobs and jobs and also resources for the State which is you, which is I who are all of us.
But that can seem angelic and naive ...

But if your job was to build houses, what would you think?

Astonishing reasoning!
You are therefore against self-construction because it causes jobs to be lost to others and resources to the State.
It is true that by building it, we feed an entire economic network through which each professional branch "is sugar". There are the craftsmen, the materials, the connections, the architect and as all this is costing more and more, the banks to finance all this and of course the insurance to guarantee. This brings VAT and income taxes to the state.
The debt over 20/30 years of a household that is building therefore allows a lot of people to live. The problem is that the needs of this "lot of people" increase as our materialism gains strength. Well yes, you have to consume to have a good economy and to be able to consume, you need income. Well, our household, even if it maintains the lifestyle of a lot of people, through its loan, will on the contrary reduce its purchasing power.
But he also has the right to preserve his purchasing power by choosing to self-build. As a result, it borrows less and "distributes" less to the socio-professional categories involved in the building industry but having preserved purchasing power, they are led to potentially consume more in other areas.

And then we have the right to wish for the decline of our society.
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by Kyos » 08/11/07, 10:17

Hello

DELAIR wrote:Yes ... that's why our state is getting poor!
That the small association of a few causes others to lose jobs and jobs and also resources for the State which is you, which is I who are all of us.
As bham remarks, what a strange reasoning. And totally wrong ...

First of all, self-construction does not cause anyone to lose anything, because most often such an approach is undertaken for lack of financial means. Clearly, this means that the people concerned could not buy a ready-made house. They are therefore not potential customers for professionals, and there are no lost jobs or state resources. Quite the contrary, since by self-construction, they will still have to buy a lot of things in commercial circuits, even in spare parts (plumbing, electricity, heating, paints, wallpapers ...). They will then participate in the increase in GDP and therefore in the financing of state expenses. And jobs will be created and maintained, unless it is imported naturally : Mrgreen:. And once the house is built, they will also help finance the expenses of the various communities on which the house depends.

Certainly, the value of the auto-built house will not be taken into account in the calculation of the GDP. And yet, it exists, it is useful and it has really "enriched" the one who built it, and therefore the community. Isn't the "wealth" of each one part of the wealth of a community? And, if one day this house is sold, it will be sold at market price and the result of the transaction will then indeed be included in the GDP. And yet, nothing will have really changed, the house will remain the same, and except for the remuneration of possible intermediaries, this transaction will not have really increased the wealth of the country and no jobs will have been created. So, don't you think that GDP is something totally artificial, normative, not taking into account a real creation of wealth, and only presenting reality through the prism of a set of standards.

Let's take things from another angle. If you are on this forum, it is probably that you are looking to reduce your various consumption (electricity, heating ...), and even if I want to hope that the notion of ecology is taken into account in your approach, you also do it for the sake of economy. Shame on you : Arrowu: : Wink: . Have you not thought of the unhappy workers and employees who will suffer from the reduction in your consumption. And maybe you have a house, with a small vegetable garden? And the peasants then :?: :!: : Wink: And you could undoubtedly find multiple illustrations of the consequences of your reasoning, and how much you are probably criticizable according to your own criteria.

So, perhaps it is necessary to think carefully about the reality and the correctness of the things on which we rely before having a judgment, especially if the latter is negative. There, the whole world would undoubtedly be better off.

DELAIR wrote:But if your job was to build houses, what would you think?
Would you be in the building trades? This might explain that : Wink:. For my part, I can tell you that I have always encouraged my clients to do what they can do themselves, and that I did well. and what's more, it's gratifying. I have never suffered from this, on the contrary, but I naturally adapted my services accordingly. I no longer intervened with my clients for what they mastered, and our joint work was much more constructive.

If I had good notions and a good experience in construction, and if I was not retired, the launch of an activity aiming to prepare and supervise steps of self construction would interest me, rather than stagnating in a traditional construction company. In my opinion, this is a branch in which there are certain possibilities and many needs. Clearly, a market that should be made solvent :D .
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by the middle » 08/11/07, 10:43

Hello,
Ha, it still holds true ... wisdom and age go hand in hand :D
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by Christine » 08/11/07, 11:53

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by AIR » 09/11/07, 15:46

I am obliged to leave my clients some work if I want to live. But if I have less money soon I will have to stop ...
Should I be an Architect to give them the power to work in peace?
And frankly, the least always the least, it never serves the community. Because people who cannot build today, built yesterday!
People who had two minimum wage arrived twenty years ago to build without going through self-construction!
So let's continue, and maybe on my work sites I will soon be forced to close them under a shed because I'm tired of having my goods stolen or sabotaged!
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by Christine » 09/11/07, 19:17

DELAIR wrote:So let's continue, and maybe on my work sites I will soon be forced to close them under a shed because I'm tired of having my goods stolen or sabotaged!

I think you mix things up a bit: just because some people do self-construction does not mean they will steal the gear on other sites! (and conversely, it is not because a guy builds that he will not use it) The fact of building or not is not a criterion of honesty - or good repute.
DELAIR wrote:People who had two minimum wage arrived twenty years ago to build without going through self-construction!

Well, yes. And nowadays, 2 average wages + do not succeed either. Is that why they should abstain? Ah no, it's true: they only have to go into debt over 50 years and thus serve the community (bankers).
DELAIR wrote:If I have less money soon I will have to stop ...

You would probably have to stop working that way, anyway. I know very well that today the market is tough, especially in the building industry. It is for this reason that Kyos offers a positive approach (retraining in the support of self-builders) which takes the aberrations of the current market on the wrong foot.
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by yensial » 16/11/07, 23:48

Interesting debate, no longer really related to the original question, and which would have its place in the section "growth, economy, GDP etc." . For my part, I agree that resourcefulness and the D system are often motivated by a lack of resources, and that this does not deprive the economy. But it's still a bit of a vicious circle, because fewer jobs also bring more people without means.

:D
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by Kyos » 17/11/07, 09:40

yensial wrote:. But it's still a bit of a vicious circle, because fewer jobs also bring more people without means. :D
Without a doubt, expressed like this. But self-construction does not necessarily imply fewer jobs, on the contrary.

As I wrote in one of my answers, the fact of self-building (or DIY ...) allows many people to build when they could not do it in an entirely commercial circuit. This therefore does not eliminate any jobs and is rather likely to generate or maintain them in related industries.

In addition, the savings, if any, are generally spent on other purchases. And if there are other purchases, there are other jobs maintained / generated.

That said, it is true that this very interesting discussion took us away from the initial subject.
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