The injection of water destroys the engine ???

Tips, advice and tips to lower your consumption, processes or inventions as unconventional engines: the Stirling engine, for example. Patents improving combustion: water injection plasma treatment, ionization of the fuel or oxidizer.
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by Flytox » 03/07/08, 20:18

Hello Septicus

septicus wrote:Hmm, for "gutter" water, it is even worse than tap water ... anything but neutral because it picks up a host of particles when it falls. It's well known.

What is well known are filters. : Mrgreen:

No need for water in various forms to pass through the injection circuit to see damage to the injectors.

You still have nothing to show degraded !? : Mrgreen:

AMHA, the only thing that could work, and already works via additives, is the integration of the condensed water molecules from the reservoir. However, the greater the proportion of water, the more it is necessary to increase the amount of additive and more particularly of the essential lubricating elements. More action = more additive = more cost and pollution.

Do you sell additives or lubricants? : Mrgreen:


To say that some have done 30 or 40000 km is not valid because the various corrosions do not yet have time to appear.

Corrosion conditions on boats are much more severe than in cars. (Sea air, permanent spray, confined atmosphere, etc.). Considering the price of the boat, he spends little time sleeping at the dock .... the immobilizations and repairs are of an "astronomical" cost and therefore the specifications are very strict on this side and the time between the revisions "optimized".

Yet ...... yet they inject water into the engine. What a bunch of unconscious, injecting water into an engine worth several million euros without knowing that it will not hold, that it will be necessary to change the injectors and the valves and all the shaking well before ..... .. : Mrgreen:

https://www.econologie.info/share/partag ... 1dbL6f.pdf


Since then, apart from very targeted industrial applications, the file has hardly advanced. Manufacturers always stumble on the problems mentioned above and speak in terms of a negative overall balance sheet.

The problems mentioned above are part of the legends, with the means at their disposal, they are still able to do better than amateurs ...: Mrgreen:

I have long approached the world of automotive equipment manufacturers and the answer has always been the same: we do not know how to do it reliably.

It is rather, we have not studied anything for, but since it is not seller and economical for them, we say "we do not know how to do in a reliable way".


It would be interesting for an engineer who worked directly on the engines of a large automobile manufacturer to come and detail the state of the art of the studies carried out and the problems encountered.

Preferably in retirement, that he has nothing to sell ....

The more advanced the engine, the lower the lubrication provided by the fuel. This point must be taken into account.

Your latest generation car injector is more fragile with or without water. : Mrgreen:
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by Remundo » 03/07/08, 20:37

Super Flytox this document

https://www.econologie.info/share/partag ... 1dbL6f.pdf
We can clearly see the reductions in NOx pollutants.

On the other hand, the reductions in consumption are very low, in any case compared to other figures or measures, like that of André.

And on a very "small window", I had already made this hypothesis during the echomoteur² assessment
https://www.econologie.com/forums/resultats- ... t5294.html

who also found a reduction of 5%. Coincidence?

I imagine these engines were used while stationary. Christophe told me at one time that when unsteady, the reductions could be greater (unless my memory fails me ...)
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by Other » 04/07/08, 04:15

Hello
If water is injected into the air, it is the turbo and the high cylinders which clink and require additional lubrication by oil injection.
Ha, I forgot the valves which will not last very long either!
Regardless of the water injection mode, I see several engine components each time or it will not go well.


first we should stop talking about injecting water into the engine intake. In my case the temperature of (the humid air) entering the engine is 130c to 150c
for a 3-liter engine, swallow 1 liter of water vapor per 100km. it is no more than circling in a fog bank, or riding in the pouring rain.
for those who highlighted marine engines, the reason is quite different. Therefore many of these engines are cooled directly with fresh water, the exhaust pipes are coated with water and part of the water is injected directly in the exhaust at the pipes, the exhaust outlet is via the central hub of the propeller (350 Mercruser engine)

When starting and stopping, there is always a small portion of water that ends up entering the cylinders and it is for these reasons that the marine valves are made of stainless steel, this is not uncommon on a boat that at starting it knocks in the top of the cylinder too much water that it damages the cylinder head gasket (which are incidentally made by a simple metal sheet)

I agree that getting large drops of liquid water into an engine is bad for the engine. (it is enough to replace cylinder head gaskets on boats to realize the wear on the cylinder or the gasket was lacking)

Some Mercedes 300D figures 366941km on the odometer
42km with water spiking 069 liter of water per 1km at the start in the tests up to 100 liters
29675km at 100% oil, just the purges and diesel starts

On a Chevrolet Lumina Gasoline 279408 XNUMX km on the clock
25758 km in water doping.

Now I wouldn't deculrate the 300D just to see, but I would open that

One thing is certain after 6000 km the motor oil on the gasoline engine is surprisingly clean, on the diesel it turns black quite quickly, but no more, so difficult to assess.


I am a bit like this Quebec student who literally got "turned on" in this forum for his very realistic observations. I have long approached the world of automotive equipment manufacturers and the answer has always been the same: we do not know how to do it reliably.

For the Quebecois study, which he goes to Sorel, I would make him try two vehicles doped with water, afterwards he will draw his conclusions, now if it is necessary to do 500000 km to justify the system I will need several more years.

Andre
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by septic » 08/07/08, 14:07

The example of the boat motor goes completely in the direction of what I said since it concerns very specific motors rotating at constant speed and in a very precise mechanical environment. This is in line with the applications on certain turbines.
It is therefore not at all admissible.
On this subject, does anyone have a link to this kind of application ???
I don't have the feeling that this is really generalized.

Again, I never said that the water supply wasn't working. I'm just saying that it's not easily applicable to cars and even trucks without foreseeable damage.
Curious ... they seek at all costs to reduce their costs and no engine upgrades are offered.
But hey, a truck engine must hold 1 or even several million KM; With water, hell the damage!
I can hardly imagine a manufacturer of adatator offering this type of accessory without ending up very quickly with a max of c * l process. Truckers are not joking and the sums at stake can very quickly lead to bankruptcy.

For rainwater, I didn't have the particles in mind ... they are very often acidic and therefore unsuitable for use in an engine in any way.

Note: I see that immediately, in this kind of dorum, if someone speaks to the current, he is immediately attacked as supporting the manufacturers of additives or other invective of the same type ... it sucks!

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by Cuicui » 08/07/08, 14:26

septicus wrote: I'm just saying that it's not easily applicable to cars and even trucks without foreseeable damage.

So you expect that driving in foggy weather (the equivalent of the water vapor injection of a Gillier-Pantone system) will damage the engines?
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by septic » 08/07/08, 14:40

Curious that we can talk about marine engines without checking what has been done exactly:

http://www.tc.gc.ca/cdt/projets/Maritime/g/9095.htm

No reduction in consumption as far as I can see.

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by jonule » 08/07/08, 14:56

between seeing and doing there is a world.
easy to say, we can spend our time doing this, what you seem to be doing ... I mean: why don't you try on an old thing, so that you don't get "scared", and realize by yourself that it works?
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by Other » 08/07/08, 17:02

Hello
Note: I see that immediately, in this kind of dorum, if someone speaks to the current, he is immediately attacked as supporting the manufacturers of additives or other invective of the same type ... it sucks!



What are you trying to tell us? based on your experiences or that of a loved one? or based on everything you gleaned from the net or scientific document?
The laboratories which tested a water doping on (50000km extrapolated) keep this secret, besides all their tests are secret.

You have to make the difference between an engine which swallows liquid water in large quantities, and an engine which swallows a small quantity of water in vapor.

Just do a little calculation of the cubic meters of air that an engine swallows in an hour and calculate the water it swallows has 20% humidity and 80% humidity + the water produced by the combustion it even

In cold countries when it's -25 dry air, you can't follow a car closely, there is a white cloud behind
In summer there is still more humid air, but invisible.

Speaking against the system is constructive if it is supported by lived experiences, tests ...
go on oleomobile there are sections of damage caused to the engine with running on oil. It is from the reported problems that the corrections were made, (Lucas pump, oil too cold gummed segments ect ...)
we would like to have the same feedback on water doping, but the number of experimenters is still far behind those who walk on oil ..

Andre
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by Flytox » 08/07/08, 20:25

Hello septicus
septicus wrote:Note: I see that immediately, in this kind of dorum, if someone speaks to the current, he is immediately attacked as supporting the manufacturers of additives or other invective of the same type ... it sucks!

The "against the tide" is quite normal and legitimate, and it is most of the time very constructive to move the subject forward by listening to the opposing arguments. It is just not necessary to confuse supported arguments, facts, documents, proofs when there is etc ...
and personal convictions certainly respectable but which are based on ........... ?????? What disturbs after a while is the lack of pieces of convictions that come shore the speech.
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by Christophe » 08/07/08, 20:32

Roh the "big plot" excuse. We don't attack you, we tell you that you seem to be wrong simply by "our" experiences ...

After you keep believing what you want ...your theoretical books or "our" real experiences.

Finally you can do your own experiences if you don't like it ...
Last edited by Christophe the 08 / 07 / 08, 23: 05, 1 edited once.
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