Horizontal wind turbine on vehicle

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iridium
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Registration: 14/10/08, 11:12




by iridium » 15/12/08, 14:46

Hello,
To represent the complete vehicle in a flow, if you know the SCx of the vehicle it is enough to separate the flow in 2: the part entering the grille (calculated in my file) and the part passing around the bodywork, the loss of which is calculated with the SCx (this SCx not taking into account the grille, obviously ...)

But anyway as I indicated, the values ​​obtained are not real at all (pressure drop coefs = ??? Air speed under the hood = ???)
The goal is simply to show that in any case, we lose more energy to the air flow (therefore, in absolute reference, to the vehicle) than we recover with the wind turbine.
Afterwards, the total Cx, we don't know it and it doesn't change anything. If you have a large wind turbine that produces a lot in a car with a very low Cx you may increase the SCx by 25%; if the wind turbine is small and not very powerful, and the car is a mirror cabinet, it will increase it perhaps by 1%; but whatever happens you will gain nothing


Okidok, indeed its will also depend on the load ...

If not for your car / motorcycle comparison, certainly a motorcycle has a terrible Cx but it also has a riquiqui master-couple, which makes it generally more aerodynamic than a car!

If there is something that I am sure is that with a weight / torque and equivalent weight / power ratio, a car drives faster than a motorcycle.
I would even go so far as to say that a motorbike whose power-to-weight ratio is higher than that of a car will not roll especially faster than the latter.
I'm only talking about top speed, not acceleration capacity.
that is a certainty !!!

For example:
http://www.motoplanete.com/mv-agusta/F4 ... hnique.php
185kg dry for 190hp.
or a power weight ratio of 1kg / hp
a top speed of 312km / h real.
or about 337km / h counter.
a bugati veyron has a power-to-weight ratio of 2kg / hp, more than the MV and runs at 400km / h.

I who believed that its explained precisely by aerodynalism, I am pumped!?!?!?!? §
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Olivier22
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by Olivier22 » 15/12/08, 15:28

This is normal: The weight-to-power ratio is not proportional to the top speed (or even to its square). Otherwise, my 1ch remote controlled car for 1,5kg (better than the Veyron) would reach 500 km / h
The only "brake" that is a function of weight is the tires. And the behavior laws of tires are very complicated (even the manufacturers make approximations), in any case it is not at all proportional to the weight.
So from there to compare a quadricycle and a motorcycle ...

Anyway, even at equal weight, we could not make a comparison from the maximum power:
At what speed does the engine of the MV develop 190 hp?
At what speed does the Veyron's engine develop 1001 hp?
What are the box layouts for each?
I would tend to think that the MV has a rather short gearbox and a very pointed engine (like most supercarred atmo engines) so a big hole after the maximum torque peak on a torque / speed curve.
While the Veyron and its huge engine, I think that the torque is more spread out in the high revs, and the last gear ratio must be optimal (not short)
I will see if I find the curves ...
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iridium
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Registration: 14/10/08, 11:12




by iridium » 15/12/08, 16:25

well in fact on hypersport bikes.
The box stage is very long.
On my late 1000SV premiere I was going up to 110km / h.
On a 1000GSXR or a yamaha R1 the first goes up to 170km / h.
"" "" 110km / h on one gear is a great feeling, I love the bike "" ""
Gearbox reports are race type
very sharp motor which pulls are maximum torque at more than 8000rpm see even for certain mill, 9000rpm.
Maximum power between 10 and 12 krpm.
breaker between this kind of 4-cylinder hypersport bike from 12000rpm and up to 16000rpm.
BMW announcing a new bike whose break would be at 18krpm

See here :
http://motorrad.sowas.com/technik/sonst ... gramm.html
4 cylinder architecture hypersport model
Kawasaki ZX10R
Suzuki 1000GSXR
Yamaha YZF R1
Honda 1000CBR

http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bugatti_Veyron
for the veyron

for motorcycles, you can trust me I am thoroughly in the field.

So from there to compare a quadricycle and a motorcycle ...

was more out of curiosity.
It is true that it is funny to highlight the fact that for a power weight ratio or even an equivalent weight torque ratio, the top speeds reached are very different.
your example with your RC box is a very good one !!!!

before I explained this difference by aerodynamics.
Considering your example given now, what can we explain such a difference in tip speed.
What are the factors that influence these parameters ...
stupid but relevant question, I think !!!!

a+
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JLB
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by JLB » 15/12/08, 18:33

... the gyroscopic effect.
I suppose that you had thought of implanting the system in the wheels !!!


Ai Ai Ai
especially not, it would be a big mistake, the wheels would tend to want to keep the same course! I'm not telling you the hairpin bend down the mountain ...

For the flywheels, I discovered on the forum
"Kinetic energy recovery system"
interesting remarks from 'chatelot16' and "RIAZ"
and the application quote under trams. Here, the gyroscopic effect is not very noticeable, the machine is guided by rails, curves and gradients very progressive.
https://www.econologie.info/share/partag ... VlYumg.JPG
Provided that the device presented has this utility!

On a ship too, it can be profitable. For an airplane, especially not.
On a light vehicle, the overload is not worth it
Unless ... if the mass was volatile, for example water ice, and its very light but resistant retention system (carbon fiber?) A high speed of rotation (on magnetic bearings) a modest diameter ... C is more than science fiction yet, but may not be for long.
But in all configurations, do not expect to recover more energy with a wind turbine than is lost through its braking effect on the vehicle. The case of ships is different, in the case of a sailboat, the energy is already the wind, so, losing a little to make electricity, it's OK, on ​​another ship, the The interest may be to avoid converting part of the motive energy (with poor efficiency) and to save hundreds of meters of cable.
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iridium
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Registration: 14/10/08, 11:12




by iridium » 16/12/08, 09:17

Ai Ai Ai
especially not, it would be a big mistake, the wheels would tend to want to keep the same course! I'm not telling you the hairpin bend down the mountain ...

vindédjiou.
yeah, indeed it's a big flywheel.
I said that to combat the gyroscopic effect of the wheels.
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Olivier22
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by Olivier22 » 16/12/08, 20:56

Whether it's in the wheels or not, you need counter-rotating flywheels anyway. Body movements induced by movements on other axes would be even worse than an inertia of the direction.
But we must avoid ballasting the wheels to reduce the unsprung masses, a question of handling.

We talk about it in the subject "kinetic energy recovery"
https://www.econologie.com/forums/systeme-de ... t6653.html
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Serdj
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by Serdj » 09/11/11, 10:39

to come back to the original debate on this thread, I point out that it is quite possible for a vehicle to recover the energy of the wind by a wind turbine mounted on this vehicle. Be careful, I am not talking about the "wind speed" of the vehicle, which would be completely silly, but the real wind, the one that blows.
Calculation shows that a vehicle propelled only by the force of the wind can "go upwind", it can even do so with a speed greater than that of the wind.
Even better, even if it seems incredible, a vehicle powered only by the wind can go faster than the wind in the direction of the wind!
You can find information about this here:
Advance against the wind with the only force of the wind
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Did67
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by Did67 » 09/11/11, 10:45

Sailboats are faster "against the wind" than with the wind behind them. But not head on anyway ...

But there is an "airplane wing" effect here thanks to the shape of the sail ...

Wind turbines are funnier ... but not very special!
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Serdj
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by Serdj » 09/11/11, 10:52

Absolutely, moreover a wind turbine blade, if you think about it, it is never more than a moving sail, which allows it to maintain an angle of attack of a few tens of degrees even when the wind turbine faces the wind ...
Finally to recover energy from the wind, there are other solutions than sails and wind turbines (vertical or horizontal). I am thinking in particular of something that has never really been tested, the vibrating blades. But I think I'll ask the question in a new thread.
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vinzman
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by vinzman » 11/11/11, 19:08

When I see vehicles with a square front like this:

Image

where:


Image


I tell myself that aerodynamics can surely be improved if we include a `` wind turbine '' in a nozzle in this way:

Image

What do you think?
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