Prepare the exit ...

[eclectron]

I thought rather: who claims that?

It's me !
To my knowledge (I did not look either ...) but again nobody agrees on the report / diagnosis, In my opinion, there is a lot of denial about the unsustainability of the current intensive agriculture.
We are more in the "as long as I win, I play" and after me the flood.
The agris make investments corresponding to proven but not sustainable techniques. Even if the agri operates an awareness, it is locked by its previous investments.
Nobody (I did not look too much either ...) does a catalog of good practices on a large scale, allowing:
to do without chemical fertilizers,
of pesticides or reduce sharply,
to reduce water consumption,
ensure the durability of machines
etc ..
Given the scales, I do not think we can do without agricultural machinery.
Without changing the existing machine park, the fuel could be of plant origin.
Synthetic or fossil fertilizers can be done without.
Currently, faeces are not sufficiently reintroduced into the vegetative cycle.
Soil cover is not practiced enough, direct seeding either.
There are plenty of areas for progress for agriculture leading to sustainable agriculture but things are not moving, out of conformism, denial and "as long as I win, I play".

What is possible in a particular garden is possible on a large scale. It is probably necessary to adapt the practices but I do not see why it would not be possible.

For climate, you know my opinion, it warms in trend but the earth has experienced worse alone (without us). It is likely that the trend naturally reverses, or not, in my opinion no one knows, not even the consensus, not to mention the consensus.
The Sahara was green, Greenland was a little cultivable ... The climate moves all the time.
Must do with and adapt ...

[Ahmed]

I do not see the present utility of discussing the particular modalities whereas the collapse covers a rather vast and vague sense since varying according to the various perceptions. There is even a possibility of a reconfiguration of economism towards mechanization, the difference being that the agents of the previous system would have become entirely useless: the techno-system is self-sufficient.
Main lines of thought and action are interesting and I have already had the opportunity to address them on different threads to which I refer you, because I do not want to ramble on ... I am, on the whole, more interested by "demining" false solutions, which should encourage us to collectively dig a little more ... at least I hope so.
On several points of your argument I agree that you seem to doubt it: it is simply because we express ourselves a little differently.

On the climate, it is indeed likely that there will be changes in the other direction at a given moment, but the question is the possibility of a human adaptation to the sudden variation that we are currently observing.

[Ahmed]

The hypothesis of a reconfiguration into an autonomous technosphere does not invalidate the collapse considered by the human eye: they would be condemned to disappear rapidly in this case. Considered from a systemic point of view, it would however be a great evolutionary success that would perfectly accommodate species ecology, pollution (which would lose its harmful character) and global warming, etc ... all changes who would have prepared the ground and would be coherent a posteriori.

[izentrop]

There are plenty of directions for progress towards agriculture leading to sustainable agriculture but it does not move

It moves more than you think. No-till techniques are not suitable for all crops and all land and need to buy adapted equipment

To do without plowing is now common practice. According to a Ministry of Agriculture survey dating from 2011, 44% of the areas of soft wheat and 51% of rapeseed surfaces are established without tillage. We are talking about no-till cultivation techniques (TCSL), simplified cultivation techniques (TCS), strip-till (only one band is used to prepare the sowing line), direct seeding (SD), direct seeding under cover crops. (alive or dead) These no-till techniques are also referred to as conservation agriculture. http://fertilisation-edu.fr/ameliorer-l ... semis.html

Nitrogen synthesis fertilizers have a positive balance in oil equivalent because they produce more biomass by photosynthesis. Well used, so they are not a problem http://fertilisation-edu.fr/enjeux-de-l ... urces.html.

[izentrop]

First time I see this document from 2014. It does not seem to me to have been mentioned here? JMJ's thesis downgraded after that?
http://www.barricade.be/sites/default/f ... aire_1.pdf

[eclectron]

To do without plowing is now common practice.

The proof, since I know it
In any case in my near environment it's classic plowing, for all, unfortunately, ... except for an alien!

Nitrogen synthesis fertilizers have a positive balance in oil equivalent because they produce more biomass by photosynthesis. Well used, so they are not a problem

It would be smarter to reproduce the cycles of nature, so to reintroduce the excrements in the vegetative cycle but that supposes that the excrements are not polluted by anything and everything before the purification stations, in short it imposes the sorting selective excrement!
It would have the merit of being sustainable unlike a solution based on fossil resources.
and most likely that the said excrements are complete and contain NPK in good proportions.
(I do not check anything but I know you'll do it and thank you in advance )

First time I see this document from 2014. It does not seem to me to have been mentioned here? JMJ's thesis downgraded after that?

What they say is logical and true at the moment t with the technos of the instant t.
they do not project themselves into a goal of solving problems.
As energy is vital, the industry can have a special treatment to substitute oil: agro fuels, gas, H2 or electricity from the power plants themselves.
By the way they would need many more power plants (if global), gold nuclear classic as we have can not provide, it requires other technos thorium, breeder or whatever I know ...
All the problems mentioned have a theoretical solution, the pb is that between the theory and the practice ... there is always a step.
This is where anticipation would be saving, just to be ready in time and not suffering miseries that may not allow the transition to a better sustainable.
sorry but we fall on the point 1, finding / diagnosis not enough present in the minds of decision makers.
Money is our master ... instead of being a tool.

[eclectron]

Ahmed, my dear Ahmed ...
Glad to hear that you are not hostile to any suggestion to get out of the collapse, sorry it does not show.
If we consider that preparing the exit of the collapse is a war, I see you more in the role of the snipper who descends any positive initiative on pain of imperfection.
Wanting to do well, here you are in the opposing camp finally.
No doubt you are a mieuologue in the soul but the adage "the best is the enemy of the good" takes here all its meaning.
I could be hard because your attitude revolts me to the point (without laughing) but what good, it would not be constructive and I guess you understand what I say, no need to insist then?

I would say pity that considering your quality you are not more in the proposal (action? I do not know) than in the criticism very comfortable.
I do not go here often so I am not aware of your proposals.
Radoter?
I once said hello in my life, so since then I stopped saying hello ...

and if I were completely new, should I read all of Monsignor's prose before speaking to him?

Personally, if you stay with your present and claimed attitude, it is in my opinion, on the one hand, to spoil the qualities of vision and transmission that you seem to have, and it is to harm the values ​​you defend by eradicating all expression timidly. positive and necessarily imperfect, in a perfectly perfect world!

[izentrop]

izentrop wrote:
To do without plowing is now common practice.

The proof, since I know it
In any case in my near environment it's classic plowing, for all, unfortunately, ... except for an alien!

I know ... My brother, since he has an adequate seeder, practices direct sowing for certain crops. A nephew, in organic, has made tools and has been practicing for years. It is a little backward because of some weeds difficult to control.

It would be smarter to reproduce the cycles of nature, so to reintroduce the excrements in the vegetative cycle but that supposes that the excrements are not polluted by anything and everything before the purification stations, in short it imposes the sorting selective excrement!

Yes, the rise in oil prices (kept artificially low) will make these sectors more competitive. There are studies going on, like OCAPI

izentrop wrote:
First time I see this document from 2014. It does not seem to me to have been mentioned here? JMJ's thesis downgraded after that?

What they say is logical and true at the moment t with the technos of the instant t.
they do not project themselves into a goal of solving problems.

In fact, these are the arguments of anti-nuclear, few scientific sources, Wikipedia, Negawatt clearly anti nuc. We need nuclear energy to get through climate change and the scarcity of energy resources ...

[eclectron]

2 visions of the output:

[Ahmed]

Eclectron, I see that you have provisions for persiflage ...
I consider that denouncing false solutions is very positive, because they are the objective allies of what they are trying to fight.
If you absolutely want "positive proposals", there is essentially nothing that is very trivial and it is almost the opposite of the current operation: relocate food production as much as possible, orient yourself towards simple, energy-efficient and locally controllable techniques, rebuild real solidarity (and not supported by institutions). But, as you can see, these very simple principles are in reality very difficult to implement since the trades have been replaced by "jobs" and the associated knowledge disappeared, as for the social links, it is better not to speak about them : their destruction was a prerequisite for the advent of the producer / consumer ...
The question of democracy is the central point: without it no possible solidarity (for the moment, we do not take the way with the growing income gap and state authoritarianism); it is also because the choices to be made must be truly collective and sufficiently easily revisable to rectify the errors or improve what can be to achieve a society as imperfect as possible, a society that is at least capable of not fall back into past mistakes.

Good, pretty drool ...