NOTICE TO DIMINISHING - Help!

Warming and Climate Change: causes, consequences, analysis ... Debate on CO2 and other greenhouse gas.
User avatar
sen-no-sen
Econologue expert
Econologue expert
posts: 6856
Registration: 11/06/09, 13:08
Location: High Beaujolais.
x 749




by sen-no-sen » 18/01/14, 11:18

Janic wrote:sen no sen hello
This is not utopian and can be extrapolated to the rest of the world by adapting the concept to the way of life of developing countries.
This is Marxist messianism of its kind!
Esaie 11-6 « the wolf will live with the lamb, the panther will lie down with the kid, there will be no harm or damage to my holy mountain because the earth will be filled with the knowledge of the Lord ... »


Access to water, food, health, education and security is absolutely utopian and even less messianic!

The liberal system brings an increase of the standards of life in the areas where it metastasizes, the big problem is that it is done with the detriment of the environment and the future generations, and the result in term and worse than originally!
There remains the difficult task of evacuating the entropy related to contemporary economic doctrines (= decay).

Marxism is based on a messianic concept of the Judaic type redacted from its divine dominance, it has absolutely nothing to do with what is developed above, because messianism leads straight to dictatorship because it is a concept disconnected from natural realities.

As the text says, it is not the market that is to regulate, but the mind, the heart, the human mentality and that's worse than the 12 works of Hercules at the same time


Let's start by taking into account the laws of thermodynamics and statistical mechanics applied to economics and then we can consider opening our "hearts"! : Mrgreen:

All the civilizations that have come to grips with it have all failed, including the highly sophisticated Israelite model


The Israelite model is above all 5000 years of persecution!
I much prefer the "big brothers" ie the Indians Kogi which have remained "stable" for millennia and have seen the "great" civilizations collapse in turn.

but dream and hope are engines of life.


Absolutely!
Especially when the collapse come knocking on our door ...
0 x
"Engineering is sometimes about knowing when to stop" Charles De Gaulle.
User avatar
chatelot16
Econologue expert
Econologue expert
posts: 6960
Registration: 11/11/07, 17:33
Location: Angouleme
x 264




by chatelot16 » 18/01/14, 13:32

growth or decay it makes me laugh: it's as if the captain of the boat was only concerned with speed without trying to find out where he is going ...

and it's even more complicated than surface navigation or there is only 2 dimension ... the choices to make are multiple dimensions

it is therefore necessary at the same time the growth of what is bad, and the growth of what is useful, and which does not consume too much matter or energy.

a beast growth of what is said bad without inventing what is better and should grow instead would be catastrophic
0 x
Janic
Econologue expert
Econologue expert
posts: 19224
Registration: 29/10/10, 13:27
Location: bourgogne
x 3491




by Janic » 18/01/14, 13:34

Access to water, food, health, education and security is absolutely utopian and even less messianic!
This is true in theory, but in theory only because, unfortunately, neither access to water nor the rest is equitably distributed in the world (even if there would be efforts to stretch it). Humanity for centuries of recession and never its cultures have sucked or have reached and again and again it is not for tomorrow.
The liberal system brings an increase of the standards of life in the areas where it metastasizes, the big problem is that it is done with the detriment of the environment and the future generations, and the result in term and worse than originally!
Here we agree!
because messianism leads straight to dictatorship because it is a concept disconnected from natural realities.
???? Where ?
Quote:
As the text says, it is not the market that is to regulate, but the mind, the heart, the human mentality and that's worse than the 12 works of Hercules at the same time
Let's start by taking into account the laws of thermodynamics and statistical mechanics applied to economics and then we can consider opening our "hearts"!
Deep mistake! When there is no will (in the sense of wanting) without constraint, it never works! Take the example of the restau 'of the heart, it is not a question of mechanical application of thermodynamics, but of a desire to help one's neighbor and thus of the order of the emotional, first of all. concrete action then.
Quote:
All the civilizations that have come to grips with it have all failed, including the highly sophisticated Israelite model

The Israelite model is above all 5000 years of persecution!
Re- ??????
I much prefer the "big brothers" ie the Kogis Indians who have remained "stable" for millennia and have seen the "great" civilizations collapse in turn.
I just read 500 years only!
Quote:
but dream and hope are engines of life.

Absolutely!
Especially when the collapse come knocking on our door ...
Rather, too!
0 x
User avatar
sen-no-sen
Econologue expert
Econologue expert
posts: 6856
Registration: 11/06/09, 13:08
Location: High Beaujolais.
x 749




by sen-no-sen » 18/01/14, 15:49

Janic wrote: Humanity for centuries of recession and never its cultures have sucked or have reached and again and again it is not for tomorrow.


Is there a high risk that humanity is going through a nightmarish period (in the next decades / years?) And this is unfortunately already the case in many parts of the world ... this is not the case here. an exercise in clairvoyance, but a simple observation ...

My reflection is not based on what has happened precisely because I am not a prophet, but simply on the means to be implemented to allow the whole of humanity to perpetuate itself.

To those who say that this is a utopia, I would systematically answer in the negative because a utopia is I quote:"a representation of an ideal and flawless reality".
Excluding the implementation of such guidance is not free from defects, nor conflicts!
On the other hand, it has the advantage of being included in our genetic heritage (the perpetuation of life).
So, here there is no question of love, and of "people who hold hands", but simply of an individual who can live with dignity in a preserved environment, nothing more!

???? Where ?

In response to the sentence:
"Messianism leads straight to dictatorship because it is a concept disconnected from natural realities."

To avoid the off-topic and pages of explanations, and for the sake of clarity, let's just say that messianism and a religious belief based on the idea that a man (the Machiah) will bring to the people (Jew in this case ) redemption and the coming of paradise on earth.

This idea originally from Judaism (but possibly earlier) has been adapted throughout history by different currents of thought such as Marxism (social messianism), Nazism (racialist messianism) and in what interests us the contemporary economic sector (messianism of growth and techno-scientist).

In any case, this type of belief has led to massive extermination!
Because as an object of supreme abstraction, the belief in the arrival of the messiah (whatever his form) allows his followers to commit any type of abuse ...."the end justifying the means".
Exactions always inferior to the supposed infinity of the benefits of such (supposed) coming ...


Take the example of the restau 'of the heart, it is not a question of mechanical application of thermodynamics, but of a desire to help one's neighbor and therefore of the order of the affective first, of the concrete action then.


The "restau du coeur" is above all the will of the socialist government via Jacque Attali to find a way for the state to partially disengage the aid to the most deprived * ... sorry to kill the myth!


I just read 500 years only!


Add an order of magnitude!

* ... Poor people because of socio-economic error and therefore a poor understanding of the principles of thermodynamics ...
0 x
"Engineering is sometimes about knowing when to stop" Charles De Gaulle.
User avatar
sen-no-sen
Econologue expert
Econologue expert
posts: 6856
Registration: 11/06/09, 13:08
Location: High Beaujolais.
x 749




by sen-no-sen » 18/01/14, 18:05

chatelot16 wrote:growth or decay it makes me laugh: it's as if the captain of the boat was only concerned with speed without trying to find out where he is going ...


To know exactly where humanity is going, nobody knows!
The only thing we are certain of is that we must preserve life.
Off the search for exponential growth is in strict opposition with this last point.

In the case of a decreasing society, there is at least the possibility of allowing our societies time to reflect on their evolution.

it is therefore necessary at the same time the growth of what is bad, and the growth of what is useful, and which does not consume too much matter or energy.


The terms growth / decay are used in an all-encompassing logic, otherwise one inevitably falls into semantic manipulation.
For example, when we talk about green growth: the growth of the renewable energy sector and assimilated, we understand a separation from other sectors (eg nuclear, fossil etc ...).
Outside of the official discourse ("sustainable development") a vagueness is deliberately maintained, namely green growth more other growths!
The scam of sustainable development, it is to maintain costs that costs the search for growth by skillfully placing a screen of smoke (green!) To continue in the worst and divert the intention!

So things need to be clarified the economic decline is the decrease of the whole .
Even with green growth at 200% the total sum of all economic sectors will inevitably be in the negative, otherwise it is mystification.
0 x
"Engineering is sometimes about knowing when to stop" Charles De Gaulle.
Janic
Econologue expert
Econologue expert
posts: 19224
Registration: 29/10/10, 13:27
Location: bourgogne
x 3491




by Janic » 18/01/14, 18:31

To avoid the off-topic and pages of explanations, and for the sake of clarity, let's just say that messianism and a religious belief based on the idea that a man (the Machiah) will bring to the people (Jew in this case ) redemption and the coming of paradise on earth.

Simplified or even simplistic way of seeing the subject.
In principle, the messiah in question (Moses will say, " he will come a man like me and you will listen to him ") Is commissioned to, as the saying goes, correct what has been twisted. So the idea of ​​"redemption" is always linked to the change in behavior of the individual or individuals through conformity to the so-called mosaic law. " go and do not fish anymore Jesus will say to the adulterous woman. So no free paradise!
Then: no question of messiah FOR the Jewish people (in the national or religious sense of the term) but for the whole of humanity, believer (in the usual religious sense of the term) or not. The FOR being to be replaced by the PAR. The criterion is not to belong to a particular socio-cultural category, but to a "family" of heart and mind.
This idea originally from Judaism (but possibly earlier) has been adapted throughout history by different currents of thought such as Marxism (social messianism), Nazism (racialist messianism) and in what interests us the contemporary economic sector (messianism of growth and techno-scientist).

It is precisely in the biblical discourse the typical examples of what was crooked ; therefore this "judgment" is in itself justified in relation to human cultures, but without any real and direct link with the book that was supposed to serve as a guide for these populations.
It's like a manual of operation and maintenance of any machine built by the hands of men. Some read it and comply with the instructions, others find it too complicated or too restrictive and act according to their desire. But the guarantee (paradise) applies only to those who have followed the instructions of the manufacturer, supposed to be the most competent as to the good use of the machine;
In any case, this type of belief has led to mass extermination!

it is always a distorted and therefore inaccurate vision of the set objective. Jesus told his disciples that whoever takes the sword will also perish by the sword. Clearly, violence is not a viable response to violence, let alone extermination.
So where would the common thread lead to mass extermination?
Because as an object of supreme abstraction, the belief in the arrival of the messiah (whatever its form) allows its faithful to commit all types of abuses .... "the end justifying the means".

And once again they are references to religious systems with all their deformations. Lying, stealing, raping, murder, etc. have never been part of a biblical messianic message.
Exactions always inferior to the supposed infinity of the benefits of such (supposed) coming ...

Abuses that are everywhere. No need to invoke any messianism. On the other hand, the dark side of human nature is indeed "universal", religion or not.
But what is regrettable is always this confusion between the behavior of some, attached to the systems they exploit or by which they are exploited, and the raison d'être of a constructive philosophy of more or less forgotten values , willingly or not.
This is the current case of Islamists (in this case the term is no longer appropriate) fanatics confused with all Muslim believers who aspire and preach peace between all men despite their differences in culture, belief, nationality or color.
Quote:
Take the example of the restau 'of the heart, it is not a question of mechanical application of thermodynamics, but of a desire to help one's neighbor and therefore of the order of the affective first, of the concrete action then.

The "restau du coeur" is above all the will of the socialist government via Jacque Attali to find a way for the state to partially disengage from aid to the most deprived * ... sorry to kill the myth!

Indeed, this is called pulling the blanket to oneself! But again, between what was desired and what happened to it, Do not mix everything up. When Coluche founds these restaurants, he saw this as a stall and therefore intended to be taken over by the competent authorities. Unfortunately, volunteering ended up being exploited as a substitute for political and human responsibility. This is humanity with its flaws and its qualities!
It is the same with donations for medical research while the profits distributed to shareholders such as Total or l'Oréal are many times greater than the donations collected. This does not eliminate the generosity and quality of those who give and those who receive.
0 x
User avatar
sen-no-sen
Econologue expert
Econologue expert
posts: 6856
Registration: 11/06/09, 13:08
Location: High Beaujolais.
x 749




by sen-no-sen » 18/01/14, 20:02

Janic wrote:Simplified or even simplistic way of seeing the subject.

Econology is not a forum on religions, so I have deliberately made simple to come to the point and avoid dozens of pages of explanation that would not interest many people to maybe you. So I'm sticking to a simple explanation, for the rest there are specialized sites and videos ...



no question of messiah FOR the Jewish people (in the national or religious sense of the term) but for the whole of humanity,


This is an interpretation ... Christian, because in Judaism the messiah come for the Jewish people (reunification of Israel and realization of the 4 miracles prophesied), and his last must then lead the world to a better tomorrow (so by the Jewish people as you mention).
It is a relatively different vision from that of Christians where the return of Christ will come among the "righteous" which does not imply any particular religious or ethnic affiliation.

it is always a distorted and therefore inaccurate vision of the set objective.


Culture is based on the exchange of information, it is totally futile to believe that a concept will not be improperly recovered.

So where would the common thread lead to mass extermination?


The common thread is the historical facts: reminder: the Nazism leading to the Second World War and more than 60 million dead ...
Communism at nearly 100 million dead ...
As for the totalitarian merchant system, certain demographers speak "calmly" of a drop in the world population from 9 billion to 2/3 billion by a series of collapses that I dare not imagine!


Abuses that are everywhere. No need to invoke any messianism.


If the abuses are everywhere in the human history, the fact is that the belief in a final objective has for nature to multiply the determination among its practitioners ...
It also has the consequence of creating self-fulfilling prophecies and that is why messianism presents a major danger.


When Coluche founds these restaurants, he saw this as a stall and therefore intended to be taken over by the competent authorities.


The reality is a little less "altruistic" ...
0 x
"Engineering is sometimes about knowing when to stop" Charles De Gaulle.
Janic
Econologue expert
Econologue expert
posts: 19224
Registration: 29/10/10, 13:27
Location: bourgogne
x 3491




by Janic » 19/01/14, 08:13

This is an interpretation ... Christian, because in Judaism the messiah come for the Jewish people (reunification of Israel and realization of the 4 miracles prophesied), and his last must then lead the world to a better tomorrow

It is, again, linked to ONE culture, not to the reference text that is the biblical writings (in other cultures it would be other founding texts taken in reference). Here again this confusion between FOR and PAR.
(so by the Jewish people as you mention).

Of course, but respecting the meaning of the text that they are commissioned to show by Example what these laws can bring concrete in the everyday life of the population, whatever it is. Hence this formula " when the nations see all the blessings that are yours, they will ask what is your god so that we follow him. Clearly, I have already mentioned, the Jewish people is a prototype intended to be mass produced and not to be and remain a unique copy.
So it's like saying politics is made FOR politicians (and it happens a few times, but again it's hijacking) and not BY The politicians FOR the people. In the latter case they are in their function. The goal set for the "Jews" is to be the "guardians of the temple," that is to say, the law as any legislature to this function. After they are concerned with the application of these laws to themselves, it is obvious just as police, police and judges are not exempt from being subject to them too. (Even if some rotten apples think they are exempt!)
It is a relatively different vision from that of Christians where the return of Christ will come among the "righteous" which does not imply any particular religious or ethnic affiliation.

There too, we must not confuse the Catholic-Protestant interpretations of the texts (those that we call "usurped" by Christians) and the texts themselves. This kind of interpretation is an attempt at recovery to their churches where " out of the church no point of salvation ».
The Messiah Jesus does not speak in terms of the righteous, but of practitioners of justice according to their heart, in the respect of the mosaic law (Jesus was "Jewish", rabbi and therefore doctor of the law) There is no one without the other. But "Christianity" has turned away from the law (like their predecessors), laws instituted for their happiness, always according to the text in reference.
Jews, Christians, Buddhists, atheists or any other label, it is blah blah intended to make everyone believe that he is on the right side of the truth, which does not belong to anyone. On the other hand, as all inspired texts say: it is to their works that you will recognize them !
Quote:
it is always a distorted and therefore inaccurate vision of the set objective.

Culture is based on the exchange of information, it is totally futile to believe that a concept will not be improperly recovered.

Totally agree, but it's still and always recovery, so deformation. Would you take a plane that you would know that the conditions of manufacture and maintenance are not respected and you would take this type of device in reference on the pretext that it is the only type of gear in circulation?
Religions (of which atheism is a part too) it's the same thing, since the time they are in circulation they become the reference and few people ask themselves whether these religions are in good condition. operation. But for me in any case, I do not seek to recognize any religion as a reference, but to know what are the best conditions for the manufacture and maintenance of these devices, it is fundamentally different. And when I put a continuation of ???? this concerns the initial manual, not the rest.
Quote:
So where would the common thread lead to mass extermination?

The common thread is the historical facts: reminder: the Nazism leading to the Second World War and more than 60 million dead ...
Communism at nearly 100 million dead ...
As for the totalitarian merchant system, certain demographers speak "calmly" of a drop in the world population from 9 billion to 2/3 billion by a series of collapses that I dare not imagine!

Hence the question: where is the relationship with THE messianism, the true, not with its diversion?
You are a thread that is unfamiliar to me. Clearly you quote the bad apples from the basket, I see those that are good for the consumption and health of its consumers. The junction is difficult or impossible between the two.

Quote:
Abuses that are everywhere. No need to invoke any messianism.

If the abuses are everywhere in the human history, the fact is that the belief in a final objective has for nature to multiply the determination among its practitioners ...

Any belief in an end goal. Ecology has its own as any other sector of human life (and we return to degrowth!) This determination can generate fanaticism as peace processes. It depends on the way we look at things. The media speak of Islamist fanatics and few or no others who are nevertheless the majority.
It also has the consequence of creating self-fulfilling prophecies and that is why messianism presents a major danger.

We can not avoid deviations in any field, the question is: are these deviations dominant, the norm, or are they at the margin. Some religions have negatively and indelibly marked the story, but no one seems to have asked the question: " Did True Believers Adhere to Their Speeches and Terrorist Acts? "? I doubt !
Quote:
When Coluche founds these restaurants, he saw this as a stall and therefore intended to be taken over by the competent authorities.

The reality is a little less "altruistic" ...

It's okay that the reality is far from the ideal proposed and that it would be so much better if the humans were "angels", but we live in humans among humans and what I retain are precisely the altruists who participate, regardless of whether the "bad guys" are on the wrong side, these restaurants serve to show that all humans are not bad apples and that there is still good in the man. Is not this the most important thing?
0 x
User avatar
sen-no-sen
Econologue expert
Econologue expert
posts: 6856
Registration: 11/06/09, 13:08
Location: High Beaujolais.
x 749




by sen-no-sen » 19/01/14, 13:11

Janic wrote:Clearly, I have already mentioned, the Jewish people is a prototype intended to be mass produced and not to be and remain a unique copy.


In the torah the "chosen people" or "people of priests" ie the Jewish people, must set an example to the world, a world which should follow the laws arising from the Torah through religious currents such as Noachism for example. ...
.. that has resulted in 5000 years of persecution of the Jewish people, the most atrocious in contemporary times ...


Hence this formula: "When the nations see all the blessings that are yours, they will ask who your god is so that we may follow him. Clearly, I have already mentioned, the Jewish people is a prototype intended to be mass produced and not to be and remain a unique copy.


Jewish messianism, whatever the way it is interpreted, revolves around a land: Israel, of a people: The Hebrews, and of a final spiritual leader: the Machiah (himself a Jew).
It is a Judeo-centered concept.
This is perfectly logical because it is a religion concerning the Hebrews, on the other hand the causal chain caused by the emergence of competing currents (Christianity and Islam) and its worldwide adherence has finally transported the original concepts and give a particular historical feeling towards the Jewish people, which has largely favored anti-Semitism throughout the ages.

Religions (of which atheism is a part too) it's the same thing, since the time they are in circulation they become the reference and few people ask themselves whether these religions are in good condition. operation.


This is the danger!

Hence the question: where is the relationship with THE messianism, the true, not with its diversion?


But precisely this point is not the subject of this post.
Contemporary messianisms have developed from religious influences from the "religions of the Books".
Spiritual concepts were quickly redacted to be replaced by new beliefs (the working class, the Aryan race or economic growth, advanced technologies etc ...)

You are a thread that is unfamiliar to me. Clearly you quote the bad apples from the basket, I see those that are good for the consumption and health of its consumers.


This is a subject on the decline and not on the history of messianism in the Torah.
My original remark was about the messianism of growth, ideological beacon to contemporary economic "exponentialism", let's not mix everything up!
0 x
"Engineering is sometimes about knowing when to stop" Charles De Gaulle.
Ahmed
Econologue expert
Econologue expert
posts: 12298
Registration: 25/02/08, 18:54
Location: Burgundy
x 2963




by Ahmed » 19/01/14, 16:36

Growth or its opposite, decay, lie in the field of quantity. The currents sixty-sixties went, more or less confusingly, to a challenge of this quantitative in favor of the qualitative ...
Conceptually ill-assured or well anchored to the only Situationist current, although a minority, this attempt served, mainly, to liquidate the constraints of a capitalism still attached to certain archaisms that restrained it, to start a much more "uninhibited" relationship with the 'money and thus push back, for a time, its limits.

Decay is that of the quantitative and the abstraction that goes with it; it makes sense only with the strongest possible growth of the qualitative and the particular, irreducible to the globalizing abstraction. That's the ambiguity of the term ...

If fundamentally some filliation is not nil, it is better to start on a new basis to overcome its historical recovery.
0 x
"Please don't believe what I'm telling you."

 


  • Similar topics
    Replies
    views
    Last message

Back to "Climate Change: CO2, warming, greenhouse effect ..."

Who is online ?

Users browsing this forum : No registered users and 140 guests