NOTICE TO DIMINISHING - Help!

[perplex]

Indeed the speed of collapse of a society is proportional to its ability to dissipate energy ...

You talk to the future there?

Historically I do not see! even if the Southerners had been more numerous!

[sen-no-sen]

Indeed the speed of collapse of a society is proportional to its ability to dissipate energy ...

"Time of fall" of the Roman Empire?
"Time of fall" of the USSR?

Historically I do not see!

Are you still sure of not seeing anything?

[Janic]

the best are the decreasing ones in the year!

[Aumicron]

Even with growth of 0,2% per year, a simple "moderation" effort would not allow it to return to an acceptable level.

A real effort of moderation would reverse the trend and it would already be a big step. Personally, I like this sentence: to move a mountain you have to start with the first stone.

In industrialized countries it will be necessary to consider a decrease of 50% to 70% spread on 15 or 20 years maximum

How much do you put on this eventuality?

It reminds me of people who have to lose weight and who lose 5 kg in 2 weeks and who take back 8 then. Same for tobacco and alcohol.
No. The track of moderation is good for real "lasting" change.

To come back to the subject of PopommeI, who opted for moderation, I might have been tempted by the hippie movement!

[sen-no-sen]

A real effort of moderation would reverse the trend and it would already be a big step. [/ B]

I totally agree with your quote, but if you want to move a mountain in a short time, you will need something other than moderation, because we do not have enough time.

The "moderate" consumer of 2014 consumes as much as a "frantic" consumer of 1980 ...

How much do you put on this eventuality?

Something like 99% to 100%!
As I mentioned earlier this will happen in all cases (and this has already begun), now remains to make the political choice between suicidal stubbornness - which will lead us to a rapid crash -, or a choice of society allowing all populations to live with dignity.

It reminds me of people who have to lose weight and who lose 5 kg in 2 weeks and who take back 8 then. Same for tobacco and alcohol.

I do not think we are talking about the same thing here, if I take the example of doping (because our society is doped) a doctor noting the state of his patient would not say that we must be moderate but stop as soon as possible on pain of death, and for this you need a shock treatment and act quickly.

[Janic]

sen no sen hello

I do not think we are talking about the same thing here, if I take the example of doping (because our society is doped) a doctor noting the state of his patient would not say that we must be moderate but stop as soon as possible on pain of death, and for this you need a shock treatment and act quickly.

In theory: yes! But the patient, in general, is torn between the fear of a catastrophe and the loss of pleasure or comfort (despite its drawbacks) and unfortunately we usually choose the second solution .. even final!
If it were otherwise we would have returned for a long time to the oxcart, the candle and the well in the garden!

[sen-no-sen]

In theory: yes! But the patient, in general, is torn between the fear of a catastrophe and the loss of pleasure or comfort (despite its drawbacks) (...)

Despite the reputation that is built around the decline, it is not at all synonymous with returning to the cave age!
It is possible to live better with much less and have the advantage of abandoning the race forwards thermodynamic, such as the drastic reduction of pollution.

[Janic]

It is possible to live better with much less and have the advantage of abandoning the race forwards thermodynamic, such as the drastic reduction of pollution.

totally illusory! to live with less with us is like living with a lot for other parts of humanity.
But with a global, global view, we should actually return to a way of life that is not all energy because the people of developing countries also want to taste the big cake of consumer goods that we already have well started.
In the same way our dieting will not prevent others from eating what we will not consume anymore.

[sen-no-sen]

totally illusory! to live with less with us is like living with a lot for other parts of humanity.

I mentioned all this more upstream: we must introduce a decline in growth of the order of 50 70% in industrialized countries.

With a profound reorganization of our society through a rationalization of key sectors of the economy, it would be quite possible to live with a very comfortable standard of comfort.
We have relatively mature technologies that would allow us to implement such a project today.
This is not utopian and can be extrapolated to the rest of the world by adapting the concept to the way of life of developing countries.
But for this it is necessary to put an end to the messianism of growth and the cult of deregulated markets.

In the same way our dieting will not prevent others from eating what we will not consume anymore.

The developing countries have been swallowed up by the model of economic "exponentialism", this one functioning only by the grabbing of additional sections, the countries of the "third world" had no other choice but to undergo conversion.
Nothing contradicts the fact that if another model had been put in place, things would have been radically different and would have allowed for country-specific initiatives based on its traditions and the level of development achieved.

[Janic]

sen no sen hello

This is not utopian and can be extrapolated to the rest of the world by adapting the concept to the way of life of developing countries.

This is Marxist messianism of its kind!
Esaie 11-6 « the wolf will live with the lamb, the panther will lie down with the kid, there will be no harm or damage to my holy mountain because the earth will be filled with the knowledge of the Lord ... »

But for this it is necessary to put an end to the messianism of growth and the cult of deregulated markets.

Matthew 6-24: " you can not serve god and mammon at the same time »
As the text says, it is not the market that is to regulate, but the mind, the heart, the human mentality and that's worse than the 12 works of Hercules at the same time

Nothing contradicts the fact that if another model had been put in place, things would have been radically different and would have allowed for country-specific initiatives based on its traditions and the level of development achieved.

All the civilizations that have come to grips with it have all failed, including the highly sophisticated Israelite model
but dream and hope are engines of life.