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by sen-no-sen » 25/07/13, 20:37

Ahmed wrote:Very relevant remarks!

It should be noted that current robots, any improvement they may have, operate only on very limited functions or that they are rudimentary anthropomorphic achievements: we are miles away from SF robots!

Indeed, as you say, it is not possible to extract the surplus value of robots ...


Yes, and it is for this reason that mass automation, so much fear in the 60-70 year has not occurred.
It's so much easier to relocate!
It is much easier to create the most valued from human, than with simple robots ...
In reality, AI is primarily a military research ...
The US Air Force is currently working on UCAV fleets (combat drones) that can work cooperatively and have automatic defense capability ... without human intervention!
There will be more soldiers to play the whistleblower, the silent war is there!
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by Ahmed » 25/07/13, 21:10

It is much easier to create surplus value from human beings than with simple robots ...

It's not only easier, it's impossible from robots. The interest of the machines (whose robots are only an extension) is to make it possible to extract more gain from the work of those who serve them thanks to the increase of the productivity (indirect surplus-value).

Research on drones confirms the interest of controlling humans.
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by sen-no-sen » 25/07/13, 21:34

Ahmed wrote:
It is much easier to create surplus value from human beings than with simple robots ...

It's not only easier, it's impossible from robots.


Yes of course, when I spoke about robots, I was referring to the current robots, ie machine tools used by humans ...

However, given the industrialization of our society, we are moving more and more towards a "mechano-system", replacing the original eco-system ... well for a short time!

Since the appearance of life on earth, the species have only adapted by a phenomenon of feedback to the conditions of our planet, producing this abundant source of life (nearly 9 millions of species all the same!)

Since man created a "civilization", this one has created a niche inside the ecosystem.
Until very recently, this "niche" was very close to the original model, but very quickly, with the help of technical means, we transformed this space and let it follow its own logic.

The interesting question is to know what man might look like in the future, knowing that the constraints of nature are less and less in action in our evolution *?
Having created a world in our image, very different from the original reference, I would tend to think that the answer would be that of an android ...
This is what promises transhumanism, what do you think?

* Well-on nature always takes back his rights ... sooner or later!
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by Ahmed » 25/07/13, 22:12

Of course, transhumanism is the dream of the man rid of the part of nature that is in him. Obviously, this is only a pure fantasy, since this part is ontological ...

To eradicate the external nature and our own nature is the demiurgic design of the time, it is about to be reached ... but can not be, because far from realizing the wish of Nietzsche of the superman, it is the only exaltation of nothingness that guides him.

Our system has progressively and at the cost of an increasing abstract complexity of the real; the two consequences have been the illusion of omnipotence and a systemic fragility that reaches threshold effects.

The figure of the android is certainly a plausible answer on a theoretical level (by inference of the tendency), but remains a hypothesis of school, so much the contradictions accumulate ...
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by sen-no-sen » 25/07/13, 22:37

Ahmed wrote:
Our system has progressively and at the cost of an increasing abstract complexity of the real; the two consequences have been the illusion of omnipotence and a systemic fragility that reaches threshold effects.


Fully agree!


The figure of the android is certainly a plausible answer on a theoretical level (by inference of the tendency), but remains a hypothesis of school, so much the contradictions accumulate ...


Of course it is theoretical!
On the one hand, a growing number of individuals will become aware of the constraints of such an "evolution", on the other it is a safe bet that large-scale natural phenomena remind us of our human conditions.
For example, a mega solar flare could, in the space of a few minutes, bring our world back to the beginning of the XNIXXth century ... if the ozone layer holds!



To eradicate the external nature and our own nature is the demiurgic design of the time, it is about to be reached ... but can not be, because far from realizing the wish of Nietsche of the superman, it is the only exaltation of the nothingness that guides it.


Yes, this a Promethean vision: "augmented man", very present in certain "occult pharmacies".

The notion of Superman is to be put in parallel with that of the Liberated man (Jivan Mukta in Hinduism), apart from the nuance which separates the techno-revisited Promethean vision from the Spiritualist vision (Buddhist or Christian to quote only the one ci), is that in the first it is technology which allows man to reach a new "threshold".
This is actually a regression, making the man totally dependent on technology, while in the second case it is the renunciation of the material world that leads to enlightenment.

It is easy to understand what the purpose of the techno-scientist project is ...
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by Janic » 26/07/13, 10:35

Ahmed hello
I can not follow you in your vision of a lost paradise ...
I do not ask to be followed, it's just a hypothesis to which one adheres or not, but which like any hypothesis represents a possibility that can not be evacuated by a hand.
It was a widespread belief among the ancients (Aristotle speaks of it); it is obviously referred to in the Old Testament; then a change takes place and the paradise is in the future, be it in Christianity or other utopias, like socialism or capitalism ...
This is the simplism inherited from a bad reading of this book. The TA does not speak of a paradise in the future as Catholicism and its by-products of which atheism or socialism or capitalism that you quote, but of the progressive degradation by rupture with the conditions necessary to the maintenance of a certain state.
Thus, for comparison always, health (thus paradise) is supposed to be a natural state, then the disease intervenes (to be driven out of paradise) which is only the result of transgressions of the laws of biology (the forbidden fruit) and the famous, to the woman: « I will worsen your labors and your pregnancy and you will give birth in pain ... And for the man: " cursed is the earth because of you, it is with effort that you will draw your food as long as you live it will produce bushes and tares, it is with the sweat of your face that you will eat your bread... .. "which is only the consequence and therefore the return to health (the paradise) depends solely on an adherence to the initial conditions of no transgressions of the laws of biology (of which one speaks on other subjects), in the presentnot in a future hypoyhetic (even if there were one!) ... like spiritual laws.

sen no sen hello
Hello!
There is a certain contradiction in your sentence!
A "perfect creation" (I would like to know what it might look like!) Cannot by definition become imperfect ... it's nonsense!
The concept of "perfect creation" is identical to that of a manufacturer who puts on the market a product in good order of march and thus supposed not to fail as soon as leaving the factory and even to last as long as possible. However, the manufacturer does not give no guarantee on how the object will be used, the product is only guaranteed under normal conditions of use. (according to the warranty conditions)
Then the notion of perfect applied to god always refers to the notion of perfection that can have the human and is as subjective as the notion of infinite or absolute. So this perfection of god is as incomprehensible as the notion of god himself, but, anthropomorphically, it is applied to the concept of god.
One more paradox: God who is by definition perfect would create a world - let alone men - that are obviously not!
It would be necessary to stop falling back into religious simplisms which had no reason for being except for uncultivated populations to whom images, very reductive, made it possible to grasp some abstract notions such as that of god himself and of meaning as perfect. At the present time, the average peking tries to grasp notions of relativity of time and quantum mechanics, rather than extreme simplifications.
One more sense!
Especially a great ignorance more! As suggested spend a few years studying these books in order to have an undeformed image by different pro or anti cultures.
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by sen-no-sen » 26/07/13, 12:47

Janic wrote:
The concept of "perfect creation" is identical to that of a manufacturer who puts on the market a product in good order of march and thus supposed not to fail as soon as leaving the factory and even to last as long as possible. However, the manufacturer does not give no guarantee on how the object will be used, the product is only guaranteed under normal conditions of use. (according to the warranty conditions)


In this case speaking of perfect creation is an abuse of language.
Because even under "normal conditions of use" it is possible to have genetic deficiencies such as Down's syndrome or congenital deformities.
In reality, perfection is not simply this world.

So this perfection of god is as incomprehensible as the notion of god himself, but, anthropomorphically, it is applied to the concept of god.


Indeed, but in this case, is not it better to abandon this concept of God (without renouncing the Faith) given the fact that we know nothing about it?

Especially a great ignorance more! As suggested spend a few years studying these books in order to have an undeformed image by different pro or anti cultures.


Enlighten me therefore from your all-powerful knowledge, I who am a disbeliever!
(Well, I hope it will be of better quality than your knowledge of geology! : Lol: ) (humor, not kicking, not banging!) : Mrgreen:
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by Janic » 26/07/13, 16:50

sen no sen wrote:In this case speaking of perfect creation is an abuse of language.

Not an abuse (which implies an intention to deceive), but an excess of language insofar as the dimension of perfection is unknown to us, it is therefore a common language, not a reference of the absolute.
Because even under "normal conditions of use" it is possible to have genetic deficiencies such as Down's syndrome or congenital deformities.
the normal conditions today, it must be rare if not nonexistent.
So bad example is like taking for comparison an individual with all of its features and a paraplegic accident. The true causes of trisomy are poorly known (ie what causes this chromosomal bug)
Ancient art and archeology [edit]
Very few remains or old representations of Down Syndrome have been discovered; below a chronological list ....:
wikipedia
Congenital malformations are usually associated with way of life spawners as for most pathologies.
Take the example of autism whose number is increasing steadily everywhere and particularly in North America
Autism affects the way the brain processes information by modifying, in an unknown way, the organization of neural networks during development. Symptoms are usually detected by parents as early as the first two years of a child's life. wikipedia
It turns out that this "disease" was not found among Amish who refuse vaccinations and also a group led by doctors in New York, refusing all vaccinations and where no case of autism was revealed, no more (so a high enough number to indicate a direction)
In reality, perfection is not simply this world.
Currently! Or again, perfection is not anymore of this world, it is just as valid.
Quote:
So this perfection of god is as incomprehensible as the notion of god himself, but, anthropomorphically, it is applied to the concept of god.
Indeed, but in this case, is not it better to abandon this concept of God (without renouncing the Faith) given the fact that we know nothing about it?
Do we renounce everything that is not well known? In this case we would still be in the horse cart and potions charlatans. The real purpose of science is to discover, not to pretend to know everything (especially when certain domains are automatically rejected by "materialistic science"). Now, did we wait to know what the air was like to start breathing? Perception and spiritual experience can be sensory as well as extrasensory and this is not demonstrated with retorts and microscopes. So the use of the term god is used to designate a Beyond… imperceptible by machines created by the human, but perceptible by spiritual sensitivity, a sort of wireless telecommunication for some or the experience of an impossible chance for others.
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Especially a great ignorance more! As suggested spend a few years studying these books in order to have an undeformed image by different pro or anti cultures.
Enlighten me therefore from your all-powerful knowledge, I who am a disbeliever!
it's not vanity! after 40 years of study and whatever the subjectit makes sense that we can know more than someone who has flown over the subject.
So do like me, bump it! There are things that are not transmitted as a passage of witness, it is necessary to make the way oneself otherwise one falls back in the ruts of "to correctly think" that is to say to accept the doctrines and the dogmas of the systems instituted whether they are religious or atheists.
When I started the study of this work (I could have preferred the study of butterflies or postage stamps to it) I was culturally atheist or in any case indifferent to religions and even opposed to them (the history of St Bartholomew, religious persecutions reported in school books, is not for nothing and I was not fiddled with by a "believer" either)! However, I have rarely read such a boring book (I was going to say boring as possible, I said it all the same! : Cheesy: ) but reading Kant gives me the same effect. I have therefore gone beyond the phenomenon of natural rejection to seek beyond what is repulsed in this book and it is when we go beyond a priori related to ignorance that substantive marrow "Appears and impossible to achieve without crossing this stage, (it is like yogic meditation, it is not a matter of reading a summary to capture the interest and even less to believe that one will master this one in 10 lessons.) So you can leave the disbeliever for the giant clam frogs and the knowledge will come to you only by a personal work!
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by sen-no-sen » 26/07/13, 18:12

Janic wrote:So bad example is like taking for comparison an individual with all of its features and a paraplegic accident. The true causes of trisomy are poorly known (ie what causes this chromosomal bug)
Ancient art and archeology [edit]
Very little old remains or representations of Down Syndrome have been discovered; below a chronological list ....:
wikipedia


I note "Very little", and not "No", nuance!

In nature, poorly trained animals are eliminated, the basic principle of natural selection ... The same was true of humans until recently.


Take the example of autism whose number is increasing steadily everywhere and particularly in North America

Autism and Alzheimer's disease are bad examples because they are linked to contemporary phenomena.
This does not exclude that nature is not free of aberrations ...

Do we renounce everything that is not well known?

This is the big problem, many people talk about God as anything else.
Out of anything else can be verifiable, and why not manageable, which excludes God from the outset ...
In the Qur'an it says that God is unrecognizable, how not to be clearer?


So the use of the term god is used to designate a beyond ... imperceptible by the machines created by the human, but perceptible by spiritual sensitivity, a sort of wireless telecommunication for some or the experience of an impossible chance for others.


It's too easy, even the extra-sensory experiences as you say can be explained (question of time) and controllable, not God ...
Moreover the shortcut of the type The clairvoyance exists so God exists is false ... the one to exist without the other.

it is logical that we can know more than someone who has flown over the subject.

And who tell you that I flew over the subject?
It's all pretty well, but it does not add much to your argument ...
So answer: how can a perfect thing engender something that is not?
The Old Testament makes many references to his "errors": the fallen angel, the fall of Adam and Eve ... etc ...
I know well that the AT is telling the truth, but still it is necessary to be able to interpret the facts, and that many "believers" are totally incapable of it, hence the enormities blasted by fundamentalists ...
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by Janic » 27/07/13, 10:19

Sen no sen hello
I note "Very little", and not "No", nuance!
Without being able to go further simply. That said, no one can answer it, no more to say that there were only to say that there was none.
In nature, poorly trained animals are eliminated, the basic principle of natural selection ... The same was true of humans until recently.
There we agree! It is also valid for organs that would be without functions and that would also be eliminated by natural selection and yet evolutionism supports the contrary (except for cases like Gould who catches up with branches close to the one he saw previously and on which he was sitting)
Quote:
Take the example of autism whose number is increasing steadily everywhere and particularly in North America
Autism and Alzheimer's disease are bad examples because they are linked to contemporary phenomena.
Same as before, we do not know! Due to a significant increase in these pathologies today, it can be assumed that they are related to the environment, but the two examples cited are distinguished only by the injection of vaccine poisons. So nothing to do with natural selection or the environment.
This does not exclude that nature is not free of aberrations ...
We agree on this point, the question is: has it always been this way?
The answer will differ if one relies on evolutionism with extremely long times, assuming a progressive adaptation of the living to the surrounding environment or a much closer vision in terms of time and from a specific formation of the being. human and other forms of life, which requires a "fabrication" without these defects that nature is supposed to rectify by natural selection for example (which is also not rectify defects, delete it is not rectify !)
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Do we renounce everything that is not well known?
This is the big problem, many people talk about God as anything else.
You put your finger on the particularity of faith who is to believe without seeing directly. This is why the notion of god is abstract on the material and concrete level by experience.
Out of anything else can be verifiable, and why not manageable, which excludes God from the outset ...
Another mistake of appreciation. Matter is verifiable, anything that is not material (in the usual sense of this term) is not. I take again the example of the thread to cut butter, we have innumerable means to describe by the menu, the matter of which it is composed, the form which it has and thus that excludes its deep meaning which is: why? Why do it, why invent it, etc ... the search for meaning takes precedence over the material since you can cut butter with anything else. So the concept of creation unites the two dimensions without difficulty: how and why! The day we will find meaning under a microscope then we can do without a creative will (called god in religious language)
In the Qur'an it says that God is unrecognizable, how not to be clearer?
Not unrecognizable, but unknowable! That is to say that whatever the efforts of imagination to imagine God would be completely next to the plate. Hence this prohibition of to make any representation of what is on the earth, under the earth or beyond the earth to worship them (make references)
Quote:
So the use of the term god is used to designate a beyond ... imperceptible by the machines created by the human, but perceptible by spiritual sensitivity, a sort of wireless telecommunication for some or the experience of an impossible chance for others.
It's too easy, even the extra-sensory experiences as you say can be explained (question of time) and controllable, not God ...

No ! we may be able to explain the way which these experiences occur: nervous system, hormonal, etc ... not the reason. Once again, it's all about how, not why! This is why we stick the god label. Moreover, we must not confuse the extra sensory and the spiritual, an impossible chance is not extra sensory for example, to be sensitive to a spiritual dimension is not it either, it is not a gift particular of which it is possible to make a business like some. It happens and it goes away without warning, without specific measurable criteria. A prophet can come out of the midst of the human crowd, deliver his message, and fall back for the rest of his life into ordinary life.

Moreover the shortcut of the type The clairvoyance exists so God exists is false ... the one to exist without the other.

This is indeed a syllogism, it is as if speaking of the faith of the atheists we drew the conclusion that god (or chance) exists ... and yet!
The impression that this kind of reaction leaves me, and that I have noticed several times in the past with "old believers", is this side: " religion deceived me, it made me cuckold and so religions are like good women (or men) they are all bastards who speak of fidelity, love only to kiss you I noticed this for the first time, a long time ago, at Robert Ambelain's work « jesus or the deadly secret of the Templars Which makes a clever demonstration convincing for a non-biblist, and who, at the end of it, actually reveals that his religion has made him cuckold. Same thing for the singer of the French atheism Michel Onfray which makes a lot of emulators in his corner, one finds this attitude at the old adherents to sects or religious movements like the TJ, the skeptics of Canada, the atheistic sites like Alice , etc. After having believed, after having loved, they hate and end up finding all the possible faults and imaginable to their old love! It is not a separation, but a real break. But not being used to loneliness, they start to love the opposite of their old love, he was great, they choose small, she was fat, they choose a skinny as if to switch to the opposite (or opposition in politics) was going to turn bad into good. Hence this shift in belief in some religion, to an indifferent or militant atheism according to personalities ... and therefore fucked for the second time, but it can please!
Quote:
it is logical that we can know more than someone who has flown over the subject.

And who tell you that I flew over the subject?

It is as obvious as me with paleontology, I quote all the time, relying on people who know more than me, but I can not recommend having studied all aspects for decades. Or (without wishing to offend you) you would be a former Jehovah's Witness or a former Catholic (which is about the same) who know some passages by heart, but are unable to support a true contradictory study.
So answer: how can a perfect thing engender something that is not?
I have already answered above. Generally, and you are not the only one, there is confusion between manufacture and use.
The Old Testament makes many references to his "errors": the fallen angel, the fall of Adam and Eve ... etc ...

It is a speech for human use and thus taking forms, terms accessible to the understanding of men. But the text does not speak of imperfection, only of reciprocal trust between creator and the created thing: " you will not eat of it, you will not touch it, on pain of dying... God knows that from the day you eat, your eyes will be drawn and you will be like God knowing good and evil Pretty philosophico-spiritual condensed!
Car manufacturers are putting more and more tachometer with red zone, to avoid engine breakage, relying on the wisdom of the driver not to go beyond it is called free will (even limited); the body itself has its limits and we can not without risk of dying to go beyond the limits. Even conceived in a "perfect" way does not mean immortality, except in stupid comics, nor do anything either.
I know that the AT says true, ..
There it's a mouth corner! :|
but still it is necessary to be able to interpret the facts, and that many "believers" are totally incapable of it, hence the enormities debated by fundamentalists.!
This is unfortunately inevitable, we can not prevent people from interpreting a speech whateverotherwise we would be under a totalitarian regime like when the Catholic Church forbade reading the Bible: either to avoid such misinterpretations or to hide its own ignorance, but it is not worse when individuals or systems are speech interpreters they also misunderstand: one-eyed against blind?
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