By the way ... what is Nuclear exactly?

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Did67
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Re: By the way ... what is Nuclear exactly?




by Did67 » 17/11/17, 12:58

Ahmed wrote:Yes, it is good to specify why nuclear power is not "zero CO2 emissions", as we hear everywhere.


Amazing thing: no one ever talks about the gray energy of petroleum products !!! 1 l of fuel is given for 10 kWh (approximately). However, when it comes to oil shale in Canada, for example, you need 1 l of fuel to produce 3! 30% gray energy, never mentioned. And again, the product is not refined, it has not been transported through half of the world to finish at home ...

I am always amazed at the sleight of hand, which consists in highlighting the energy of the RE and ignoring that of petroleum products, as if the liter of fuel arrived in our tank by a miracle!
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Re: By the way ... what is Nuclear exactly?




by sen-no-sen » 17/11/17, 12:59

Grelinette wrote:There are some values ​​on the internet, of the order of 300 to 400 degrees in the primary circuit, ie the circuit whose water will directly recover the heat produced by the nuclear reaction, (See the EDF website) ... while the nuclear reaction is capable of producing some 15 000 000 of degrees Celsius. (We "play" with fifteen million degrees to use 300! : Shock: ).



You would not confuse fusion and fission?
In a nuclear reactor the fuel temperature does not exceed a few hundred degrees, it is a slow and progressive release of energy, nothing to do with what can be found in a bomb A.
This release of energy is controlled and is maintained at a constant rate through control rods that regulate the number of neutrons.
A moderator regulates the neutron velocity to increase the chances that they will cause a reaction, fortunately otherwise the reactor would eventually melt (to 2500C °).


And if I'm not mistaken, that's what happened for Chernobyl, and it's also what we feared for Fukushima, the famous "Chinese syndrome".


In the case of the melting of the reactor core the temperature of the radioactive magma does not exceed 3000C °, the notion of Chinese syndrome is very largely exaggerated, in the absence of a recovery crucible the magma would infiltrate the water table and cool with a few years ...

but finally and all things considered, just to heat water at 300 ° it would surely cost less to install large turbines in the magma of a volcano than to build a nuclear power plant! And probably also cheaper to transport the electricity produced from the heat of volcanoes even if it comes from some volcanic regions located at the other end of the world!


Unrealizable in the sense that the thermal sampling would lead to a cooling of the magma on the surface which would induce the formation of an unstable surface crust, making recovery of heat impossible in a short time.
Recall that a volcano is a dissipative geological system of energy, if we prevent the magma to go out it will induce an evacuation of its entropy in another way ... which is not a good idea!
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Re: By the way ... what is Nuclear exactly?




by sen-no-sen » 17/11/17, 13:06

Did67 wrote:I am always amazed at the sleight of hand, which consists in highlighting the energy of the RE and ignoring that of petroleum products, as if the liter of fuel arrived in our tank by a miracle!


Fossil fuels are by nature polluting, so it is not really necessary to explain the whole process, everyone has already seen a super-tanker, a refinery or a fuel truck.
On the other hand, with regard to renewable energies, we are easily sold dreams and "green energy", renewables being synonymous with saving the planet, which is far from being the truth.
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Re: By the way ... what is Nuclear exactly?




by Did67 » 17/11/17, 14:16

However, I find it unfair to ignore it. Even if "everyone knows" ... At that time, we could also say that everyone saw the cranes it takes to mount a wind turbine, the heavy goods vehicles that bring the blades ...

In reasoning, I find that it is never good to go from one extreme to another ... Even when it is for a good cause ("pedagogy", for example).
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Re: By the way ... what is Nuclear exactly?




by Did67 » 17/11/17, 14:20

sen-no-sen wrote:
Unrealizable in the sense that the thermal sampling would lead to a cooling of the magma on the surface which would induce the formation of an unstable surface crust, making recovery of heat impossible in a short time.
Recall that a volcano is a dissipative geological system of energy, if we prevent the magma to go out it will induce an evacuation of its entropy in another way ... which is not a good idea!


Let’s nuance: geothermal energy is widely practiced by certain countries "living on volcanoes". Iceland for example.

I agree that generalization (drilling anywhere, going into the magma and recovering its heat) would be far more complicated. In geothermal energy, we stay in the layers of hot rocks, which are themselves heated by the magma ...
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Re: By the way ... what is Nuclear exactly?




by Olivier22 » 17/11/17, 16:18

Regarding looking for deep geothermal pockets, you forget a detail: besides the difficulties related to drilling, it is still necessary that the water manages to stay hot time to reach the surface ... A pipe of several kilometers that make a sacred radiator!

Grelinette wrote:the "minimal benefits" that we derive from it, namely, to heat water only a few hundred degrees, if I may say so!

By the way, do you know what temperature from a nuclear reaction is actually used to heat the water that will drive the turbines at the end of the process to produce electricity?

There are some values ​​on the internet, of the order of 300 to 400 degrees in the primary circuit, ie the circuit whose water will directly recover the heat produced by the nuclear reaction, (See the EDF website) ... while the nuclear reaction is capable of producing some 15 000 000 of degrees Celsius. (We "play" with fifteen million degrees to use 300! : Shock: ).

The water is heated to about 330 ° C.
It circulates in closed circuit between the reactor and the exchangers (steam generators). In the exchangers it cools to about 290 ° (if my memory is good), then goes back into the reactor.
The entire circuit is maintained under a pressure of 3 bars so that the water remains in the liquid state.

You speak of nuclear fission as a flame of which one would only use a small part of the heat; this is not the way to see things.
A flame needs a minimum temperature to be serviced. Nuclear fission occurs regardless of the temperature.
If the fuel is completely isolated, the temperature can rise to extreme levels because the energy produced remains in place. That's what happens in a bomb.
If we take this energy, we prevent the rise in temperature. This is what happens in a power plant.
The temperature is stable when the power taken is equal to the power produced by the reaction.

In a power plant, the power drawn is related to the demand of the network, it is a deposit. It is therefore necessary to adapt the power of the nuclear reaction continuously so that the temperature of the circuit remains stable.
The power of the reaction is controlled by the absorption of neutrons, using boron diluted in the water of the primary circuit and graphite bars between the fuel elements. The more neutrons are absorbed, the less is left to sustain the reaction.

When we absorb more neutrons than the reaction produces, it slows down (we say that it converges).
When the reaction produces more neutrons than we absorb, it accelerates (we say it diverges). In this situation, you have to react quickly or you will see the reaction run out of steam.
It is for this reason that there is a slow control means (concentration of boron in water) and a means of rapid regulation (depression of the graphite bars in the reactor).
Precision in passing: we could control the reaction only with the graphite bars, the problem is that they cause an irregular wear of the fuel elements (those of the top are almost always surrounded by the bars, they do not wear out almost , while the bottom ones are almost never except when the reactor is stopped). So they choose rather to regulate the average power thanks to the amount of boron and to move the bars of graphite only for the short term variations.

I reassure you, the disposition of the elements of uranium in the reactor makes that a runaway is not possible: even if the reaction diverges strongly, one will be always able to absorb more neutrons than it can produce some.

Where it becomes annoying is when you do not cool down enough and the reactor starts to melt. Because suddenly we end up with large piles of molten uranium that are no longer crossed by boron water or graphite. There is a risk of not being able to regulate the reaction: it diverges freely and it is the catastrophe (Fukushima, Chernobyl).
The amount of fuel to be collected in a compact manner so that the reaction diverges without possible control is called critical mass. It depends on the type of fuel (for uranium 235 for example it is 48 kg).
Several small stable blocks that are suddenly crushed against each other (using a detonation for example) thus achieve this critical mass. This is how we light a bomb A.

Well I'm a little scattered, but all that is to say that there is no waste in a reactor:
- the water is certainly not heated very strong but its flow is enormous, the power of the boiler is high
-The reaction is controlled and therefore slowed down, but suddenly it can last longer (exactly like a battery): all the available energy is therefore well and truly used in the end : Wink:
(Well, that's not quite right, because we replace the fuel well before it has become completely inactive, of course)

A note on performance:
A pressurized water reactor of the P4 type (for example) produces a thermal power of 4500 MW. The output electrical power is 1300 MW. The rest is divided into thermodynamic losses (turbine efficiency), heat losses (pipe insulation) and consumption of the power plant itself (pumps, easements etc.)
Last edited by Olivier22 the 17 / 11 / 17, 16: 46, 1 edited once.
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Re: By the way ... what is Nuclear exactly?




by sen-no-sen » 17/11/17, 16:18

Did67 wrote:
sen-no-sen wrote:
Let’s nuance: geothermal energy is widely practiced by certain countries "living on volcanoes". Iceland for example.

I agree that generalization (drilling anywhere, going into the magma and recovering its heat) would be far more complicated. In geothermal energy, we stay in the layers of hot rocks, which are themselves heated by the magma ...


Yes of course, but my remark followed the idea of ​​placing turbines directly in the crater of the volcano.
For the rest we can obviously exploit geothermal energy in the volcanic areas but it remains a local solution and much less obvious than it seems.
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Re: By the way ... what is Nuclear exactly?




by Ahmed » 17/11/17, 18:20

Did, you write:
I am always amazed at the sleight of hand, which consists in highlighting the energy of the RE and ignoring that of petroleum products, as if the liter of fuel arrived in our tank by a miracle!

It is so true that it is an argument to oppose to those who claim that "thanks to the magic of the market", there will always be oil: it would suffice to pay more for it!
This reasoning does not take into account the physical reality: when the quantity of energy needed to extract a certain volume of oil tends to energy equivalence (and well before it *), it is no longer possible to pursue operation, whatever the price is that one agrees to pay the final product.

* Since only the cost of extraction is involved here and, of course, is added to that of transportation, refining and distribution.
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Re: By the way ... what is Nuclear exactly?




by moinsdewatt » 17/11/17, 21:50

sicetaitsimple wrote:
Ahmed wrote:Yes, it is good to specify why nuclear power is not "zero CO2 emissions", as we hear everywhere.


That's right, but it's true for almost all forms of energy. A wind turbine or a solar panel requires energy to be manufactured, transported, mounted, any extractive industry requires energy and causes CO2 emissions, if you cut wood by chainsaw and bring it back home with your car and your trailer, the same, if you liquefy natural gas if my memories are good you spend about 20% of the initial energy, etc, etc ....

It remains to put numbers behind all that, but I do not think it's huge for nuclear.


it's quickly found.

Image

source: https://origo.energy/2017/05/02/quel-es ... uvelables/
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Re: By the way ... what is Nuclear exactly?




by moinsdewatt » 17/11/17, 21:53

Christophe wrote:Move vertically and ..
in the rock asks let's say a considerably higher energy for every km traveled :)

The deepest drilling did not exceed 12km I think ... Potential deep geothermal sites are quite rare ...


12 262 depth meters very exactly. Record held by the Russians in 1989 and not beaten since.

https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Forage_sg3
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