sustainability of ethanol fuel?

crude vegetable oil, diester, bio-ethanol or other biofuels, or fuel of vegetable origin ...
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Macro
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by Macro » 28/02/12, 08:32

chatelot16 wrote:
I do not know what's in E10, logically if I put E10 in place of E85 it should work less than gasoline ... bin no, the E10 works much worse than the gasoline ... there is something else, we are not told everything ... there must be in addition to 10% ethanol an aditif to better resemble gasoline and has a weird side effect on 2


Negative. In the E10 there is the same essence and the same ethannol as in E5 and E85. Just the injection rates that differ.

4.60 for the E5. 7.60 for the E10. Between 45% and 80% for the E85 ...
It is in metropolitan France for supermerdier service stations.

Ethanol base gasoline (e5 and e10) is a specific species. refined so that a faith ethanol incorporated into its final characteristics be the same as those of sp 95.
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by Did67 » 28/02/12, 09:23

chatelot16 wrote:I saw yesterday in the news that an ethanol production plant with wheat was built thanks to subsidies, and abandoned because it is unprofitable


Since this is not limited to the technical aspects of the multi-fuel engine ...

This is not incompetence (or at least not that): it is the demonstration of what I said above.

The factories were planned 4 or 5 years ago (Plan de Villepin) at a time when no one had foreseen soaring prices on cereals.

Alas, wheat or corn have flamed up. Therefore, with a raw material that flames, the plant is no longer profitable.

Anyway, I remind you that this profitability only held because we compared on the one hand the price of gasoline with the enormous TIPP with largely tax-free "bioethanol"!

So: the 1ère generation biofuel model goes right into the wall.

The incompetence is there: not having "seen" the macro data (and in particular that in the absence of Malthusianism, we are heading towards ... a surge in the prices of agricultural products).

@citro

Agree with your formula: electric car + development of "renewable" production
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by Did67 » 28/02/12, 09:34

Just for those interested:

- a few years ago, the price of cereals was in a range 80 / 100 euros per ton

- here corn these 3 last years: http://www.terre-net.fr/cours_marchesV2 ... 56&idMAT=2

- there wheat over 3 years: http: //www.terre-net.fr/cours_marchesV2/point_entree.asp? idRub = 2156 & idMAT = 2

- and rapeseed: http: //www.terre-net.fr/cours_marchesV2/point_entree.asp? idRub = 2156 & idMAT = 2

(From the fire of my Xantia TD, I put rapeseed oil bought 0,89 at a hard-discounter, today she is at 1,4 ...)
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by Macro » 28/02/12, 09:46

Did67 wrote:
The incompetence is there: not having "seen" the macro data (and in particular that in the absence of Malthusianism, we are heading towards ... a surge in the prices of agricultural products).


Ok ..... I shouted loudly for years: the planet will not be able to withstand such an overpopulation that eats and wants to roll ...
Did67 wrote:@citro

Agree with your formula: electric car + development of "renewable" production


Just as generalisable as the biofuels of 1ere generation ...
The mineral resources needed for the construction of solar batteries and panels are far from being inexhaustible on the planet ... For lithium for example it will put the water at the price of gold in the extraction areas. .. And it is not necessary that it to manufacture batterries..Il also need oil or vegetable resins of energy, other metals ...
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by chatelot16 » 28/02/12, 12:17

in any case we can not continue to waste energy as today

when the fuel will be 100 times more expensive we will move less, and we will organize ourselves differently

the manufacture of fuel with agricultural products impossible to make quantities comparable to what we consume today could become useful, to make the much smaller quantity which we will be satisfied with
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by I Citro » 28/02/12, 23:40

Christophe wrote:
citro wrote:Yes, this is how the Fuel Cell and the hydrogen sector are perceived by the experts.
There are plenty of experts for many years on econology then :) 8) : Cheesy:
It's a certainty. Image
For my only case, after having debated at length here on the "concept of the electric vehicle" and its theoretical and physical aspects.
I then went to practice and validated the benefits of this mode of transportation.

How many are the engineers of the forum, pasionnés by the desire to advance the research Pantone, hydrogen, solar ... and I pass so many topics here are many.

All this work of reflection, exchange, measurement and calculation carried out by the members of the forum give us a certain expertise, and in many areas.

You, our dear webmaster, could decently claim the status of project director, lecturer, coordinator of teams of researchers ...
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by Did67 » 02/03/12, 19:09

Macro wrote:
Just as generalisable as the biofuels of 1ere generation ...
The mineral resources needed for the construction of solar batteries and panels are far from being inexhaustible on the planet ... For lithium for example it will put the water at the price of gold in the extraction areas. .. And it is not necessary that it to manufacture batterries..Il also need oil or vegetable resins of energy, other metals ...


1) For the panels, it is certainly a lot of energy, silicon (even if the name sounds "scientific", it is never only ... sand), doped with traces of certain metals ... Unless I'm mistaken.

2) Indeed, for the batteries it gets a little bored ... But it's not just lithium ...

3) My thinking was very very summed up in this formula: the electric car without renewable production seems to me a dead end comparable to 1st generation "biofuels" ... With renewable production (in particular photovoltaic), it is more joyful. The question of storage remains
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