Hydrogen more energy than oil?

crude vegetable oil, diester, bio-ethanol or other biofuels, or fuel of vegetable origin ...
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chatelot16
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by chatelot16 » 02/05/12, 16:02

this is the argument that kills!

the good old electric car, currently available without technical prowess is as efficient as hydrogen and fuel cells (the real price of which is still unknown)
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Re: Hydrogen more energetic than petroleum?




by Did67 » 02/05/12, 16:42

Leo Maximus wrote:
Hydrogen mixes very badly with air and we have the greatest difficulty in exploding it.

Gasoline mixes very well with air, moreover the "internal combustion engine" is based on this principle. Every day, there are disasters because of gasoline and we don't talk about it so much it's trivial.

Instead of petrol we could have taken LPG or CNG (compressed methane).


Before going too crazy, you should still remember the pressures, boiling points, etc.

LPG is liquid at ordinary temperature and under low pressure ... For CNG, in fact, the pressures are higher but as far as I know, it is in the gaseous state in compressed bottles ...

We agree that for an explosion, two conditions must be met: a closed enclosure (garage, underground parking ...) and a mixture close to the stoichiometric proportions. The more volatile a liquid, the faster its vapor pressure in the air: eg white spirirt, a blow from a nearby grinder, it ignites; gasoline already more difficult; diesel, you can throw a match inside, it's the match that drowns ...

I find it hard to believe that H² would be less dangerous than gasoline or LPG (which is already a little more dangerous, even if the obligation of underpaping of discharge has to eliminate the risk of explosion of the tank - so feared by firefighters! But that does not prevent a magnificent "jet of fire", flame thrower if you prefer !!!)

And that it is hard to blow it up, even if I believe that in an industrial environment, it is a risk that is completely under control (like many others). Only, a car is a bit more commonplace ... and more or less well maintained.

I also know that a pilot experiment takes place in Reykjavik (Iceland), I believe. The pumps and connections still looked very "serious" to me ...

[FYI, I have two LPG vehicles]
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by sen-no-sen » 02/05/12, 17:37

Did67 wrote:Well above all, where does the hydrogen come from ???

Hydorigen is a "vector" not a source of energy. There is no "natural" source of H² ...


No natural source of hydrogen on earth ... but paradoxically the latter is the source of energy available in the Universe.

For a long time hydrogen has been used to forget the battery-powered electric car, a strategy of the oil companies?
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by dedeleco » 02/05/12, 20:36

dedeleco wrote:Maximus Leo says;
Hydrogen mixes very badly with air and we have the greatest difficulty exploding it.


forgetting thatin Fukushima, hydrogen did not have much trouble exploding 3 times in large highly radioactive explosive jets !!!
And a year later it is still contaminated !!

Japanese specialists believed that it was impossible to explode H2 in a reactor full of nitrogen, the root cause of this disaster !!


Take a hydrogen mixture (by simplistic electrolysis) air, usual, in a nice big bubble and put a spark above gas lighter or match, and you will see the beautiful explosion, to scare and earache !!

Same for methane.

I did this to teach my children about the dangers of these gases, instead of trying to take unconscious risks.
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by plasmanu » 02/05/12, 21:06

Dede.
H2 with air it burns.
It is the H20 mixture decomposed without any external contribution which explodes.
It recombines to explode.
Releases oxygen from electrolysis. And use the air one. You have a nice blowtorch.

Like a butt lighter when you fart.
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by plasmanu » 02/05/12, 21:16

I mounted gas camping bottles at 6 bars of H2 + CO. (Bingo fuel)
On an oxidic post nozzle. It is magnificently blue.
It explodes if we can say by flashback in an incorrectly mounted engine intake. But like throwing gas on a running 2-stroke engine.
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by Leo Maximus » 02/05/12, 21:27

moinsdewatt wrote:.... I dare not imagine the cost of the infrastructure for the distribution of Hydrogen.

But where is the problem, where?

It is mainly the Germans and the Japanese who develop hydrogen vehicles and the H² production and distribution chain, not us. Moreover, it is forbidden to drive on hydrogen in France. It costs the French taxpayer nothing.

So where is the problem, where?
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by Leo Maximus » 02/05/12, 21:37

dedeleco wrote:Maximus Leo says;
Hydrogen mixes very badly with air and we have the greatest difficulty exploding it.


forgetting thatin Fukushima, hydrogen did not have much trouble exploding 3 times in large highly radioactive explosive jets !!!
And a year later it is still contaminated !!

Japanese specialists believed that it was impossible to explode H2 in a reactor full of nitrogen, the root cause of this disaster !!

To my knowledge, it is not planned to put under the hood of a vehicle a nuclear reactor of 500 MW of technology of the 60s and to expose it to tsunamis.

The H² heat pump allows an electric vehicle to have a range equivalent to that of a thermal vehicle. When we have multiplied by 300 the capacity of the batteries and that they can be recharged in 3 minutes, we will no longer need the H² PACs.
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by Fakir » 02/05/12, 21:56

dirk pitt wrote:
Fakir wrote:
With 10 m² of PV, we do almost 4000 km


And so What?

with my old 106 elec from the 90s and its techno completely outdated, I consume around 17kwh per 100kms

so with 10m2 of photovoltaic from Fakir (perpignan) I could make around 7500kms : Cheesy: by injecting electricity directly into my batteries without pissing me off with stupid things like the H2 tank, fuel cell or other source of pain.
it's almost TWICE more than with hydrogen. A recent elec car with a better performance will make about 3 times more kms than with the H2
The only interest of hydrogen, autonomy but with a PHEV, we do the same with a minimum annual quantity of conventional fuel or from biomass.
We agree with my post below:
Fakir wrote: With gasoline at 1 € / L and 6L / 100 km in average consumption  6 € / 100 km
With hydrogen at 5.4 € TTC and 7.9 kg / 1000 km  4.30 € / 100 km
With an electric at 0.01 kWh and 15 kW / 100 km  1.5 € / 100 km (excluding the cost of the 5-year battery life !! 600 € / kWh or 14000 €)
https://www.econologie.com/forums/la-voiture ... 11705.html

Driving with electric cars is cheaper but ...
- 8 hours to recharge
- 160 km of range for the Nissan Leaf for example
- Battery to be changed every 5 years.


My example was just there to fix the ideas on the quantity of solar panels necessary to make qqs thousands of Km.
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by dedeleco » 02/05/12, 22:43

plasmanu wrote:Dede.
H2 with air it burns.
It is the H20 mixture decomposed without any external contribution which explodes.
It recombines to explode.
.


Experiment, H2 alone in the air, CH4, and many other explosive gases, (CO too, ask the dead firefighters), in ordinary air, it explodes suddenly from the point concentration lightning, at the first spark.

For this useless to have a nuclear power station broken by a tsunami before, to blow up a building !!!

When city gas with a hidden leak detonates an entire house or building, the gas burns in the air, so quickly that it explodes by demolishing the entire building. This occurs with H2, CO, CH4, alone or mixed as in town gas.

Just a nice bubble of the mixture, gas air is enough.

Experience it yourself, with not too much hydrogen, to stay alive !!!

This statement is therefore false and it is a very dangerous idea capable of killing, even unlucky firefighters:
H2 with air it burns


read;
http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Point_d%27%C3%A9clair

http://www.hq.nasa.gov/office/codeq/doc ... 871916.pdf
http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydrog%C3%A8ne
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydrogen


European regulations2 differentiate products by:
extremely flammable - flash point below 0 ° C and boiling point <35 ° C (example: gasoline flash point (<-40 ° C) as well as all flammable gases such as methane or hydrogen…) 3;
An extremely flammable product is classified by the risk phrase of type R12, an easily flammable by a risk phrase R11 and a flammable by a risk phrase R10.
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