Hydrogen more energy than oil?

crude vegetable oil, diester, bio-ethanol or other biofuels, or fuel of vegetable origin ...
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Did67
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by Did67 » 30/04/12, 09:47

There was a laptop (experimental or on sale?) With a fuel cell (ethanol, it seems to me), at Toshiba ... A few years ago already. No longer heard ...

No, it is certain "solar hydrogen" that my question carried. Who saw a viable system?

Because let's be clear:

a) either we believe in energy conservation or we don't believe in it (in this second case, all delusions become possible ...)

b) therefore it will be necessary to "capture" as much energy as contained in "solar H²", which is therefore very energetic (in liquid form) / efficiency of the operation (liquefaction alone is already a brain teaser)...

Who wants to bother to calculate how many roofs it would take to fill up (when the sun is out of course).

c) When I see what we do with photovoltaics, much simpler ...

d) I come back to the original question, even if it means being treated (again) of an imbecile (between the lines): "fossil" oil is today a source of energy (it is very exactly solar energy stored in the form of biomass transformed by geological processes; it is therefore a limited stock, not renewable); H², even "solar", is not a source (no more than "seaweed oil"; it is necessary to clear the surfaces and put in place the installations to produce it) ...

e) I don't know if energy density will be the real problem for years to come; it's already to have! But it is true that H² is about twice as energetic as CH4 (methane) ...

I already tend to prefer something very simple and "natural": let the plants grow (capture solar energy and transform it into "biomass"); depending on the nature of the biomass:

1) digest it gently and recover its energy = eat
2) with the waste: feed a methanizer = cogeneration (heat and electricity)
3) indigestible biomass (wood), burning it (pellet boiler) ...

There's also the option of fermentation (ethanol) ...

It's very simple and ... still little used! And do not risk jumping in the face (because it must be said too, the H² is very explosive in fair proportions with the air!).
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by Did67 » 30/04/12, 10:02

Sorry, just see now the thread dedicated to the car at H² ENR ...
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by Fakir » 30/04/12, 11:33

Did67 wrote:c) When I see what we do with photovoltaics, much simpler ...
Exactly, photovoltaics is simple, economical and requires little maintenance. It is truly a cost effective method of producing energy.
The current yields of 15% are already considerable.

Did67 wrote: Who wants to bother to calculate how many roofs it would take to fill up (when there is sunshine of course)
With pleasure ! : Mrgreen:

I will take the example of an installation of 10 m² (1kWp) of fixed photovoltaic panels oriented SOUTH (import price from China 800 $ HT)

1 kg of H² is 33.3 kWh of energy.

In my heart region (Perpignan), 10 m² of PV produced over the year 1300 Kwh. With a yield of 80% of electrolysis and 97% for storage, 30 kg of H² are produced from water.


The Mercedes F125 consumes 7.9 kg of H² per 1000 km


With 10 m² of PV, we do almost 4000 km
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Re: Hydrogen more energetic than petroleum?




by moinsdewatt » 30/04/12, 12:20

dreamer wrote:Hello econolo surfer :)

Here is the source of my question: during several discussions with my colleagues, they maintain that hydrogen is a much more practical and powerful fuel than petroleum, but that if we do not use it, it is because of lobbies etc etc (tanker plot).
...


It is rubbish, a myth that endures.

Hydrogen is super boring to store and distribute. It leaks, it explodes. It is expensive to produce from CH4 methane.

Oil tankers are not particularly behind, they just don't care. Oil is so much more practical. The same goes for the consumer.

And then in petrol or diesel it should not be forgotten that a majority of the energy content comes from the hydrogen atoms that are inside.


: Mrgreen:
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by dedeleco » 30/04/12, 13:06

Given the armada of liquid fuel vehicles, which currently exist all over our planet, we will continue to prefer the transformation of this solar hydrogen into conventional liquid fuel for a much lower overall price.
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by moinsdewatt » 30/04/12, 20:14

dedeleco wrote:Given the armada of liquid fuel vehicles, which currently exist all over our planet, we will continue to prefer the transformation of this solar hydrogen into conventional liquid fuel for a much lower overall price.


Yes quite.

And I dare not imagine the cost of the hydrogen distribution infrastructure.
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by Did67 » 02/05/12, 09:59

Fakir wrote:

With 10 m² of PV, we do almost 4000 km



1) So if I drive 20 km a year, in addition to buying one of these car jewels at a price I am waiting to discover, I must equip myself with 000 m² of PV roof, or roughly an invoice for 50 euros? So in addition to the car?

2) Where is the advantage over:

a) electric option?

b) the "biomass" option (ethanol or oil or diester) ???
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Re: Hydrogen more energetic than petroleum?




by Leo Maximus » 02/05/12, 13:56

moinsdewatt wrote:.... Hydrogen ... it explodes ..

Where does it explode? To transport hydrogen, Air Liquide has 2000 km of pipelines, largely in the north of France, and where is it exploding?

For the "explosive" power, let's do the math:

Refueling an electric vehicle with PAC H² is 4 kg of hydrogen.
Refueling an ordinary petrol car is 50 kg of petrol.

Energy power of hydrogen = 28700 kcal / kg
Energy power of petrol = 10200 kcal / kg

Quantity of kilocalories, therefore "explosive" potential in the tanks:

Electric vehicle with PAC H²: 28700 x 4 = 114800 kcal
Ordinary petrol car = 10200 x 50 = 510000 kcal (i.e. 4,47 times more)

Hydrogen mixes very badly with air and we have the greatest difficulty in exploding it.

Gasoline mixes very well with air, moreover the "internal combustion engine" is based on this principle. Every day, there are disasters because of gasoline and we don't talk about it so much it's trivial.

Instead of petrol we could have taken LPG or CNG (compressed methane).
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by dedeleco » 02/05/12, 14:13

Maximus Leo says;
Hydrogen mixes very badly with air and we have the greatest difficulty exploding it.


forgetting thatin Fukushima, hydrogen did not have much trouble exploding 3 times in large highly radioactive explosive jets !!!
And a year later it is still contaminated !!

Japanese specialists believed that it was impossible to explode H2 in a reactor full of nitrogen, the root cause of this disaster !!
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by dirk pitt » 02/05/12, 15:28

Fakir wrote:
With 10 m² of PV, we do almost 4000 km


And so What?

with my old 106 elec from the 90s and its techno completely outdated, I consume around 17kwh per 100kms

so with 10m2 of photovoltaic from Fakir (perpignan) I could make around 7500kms : Cheesy: by injecting electricity directly into my batteries without pissing me off with stupid things like the H2 tank, fuel cell or other source of pain.
it's almost TWICE more than with hydrogen. A recent elec car with a better performance will make about 3 times more kms than with the H2
The only interest of hydrogen, autonomy but with a PHEV, we do the same with a minimum annual quantity of conventional fuel or from biomass.
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