Diesel engine running on gas

crude vegetable oil, diester, bio-ethanol or other biofuels, or fuel of vegetable origin ...
User avatar
Did67
Moderator
Moderator
posts: 20362
Registration: 20/01/08, 16:34
Location: Alsace
x 8685




by Did67 » 10/09/13, 11:25

chatelot16 wrote:
Citroen ZX is for me already too modern, maybe a minimum injection stop has been added for a question of pollution

in descent with prolonged engine braking, without mini injection the engine cooled, when it is necessary to inject again it is likely to smoke a little ...



I may be wrong then!

I never "checked" for sure.

I have a long descent with a pin at the end.

With the Xantia, by anticipating the braking, the engine became discreet, then there was resumption of the "snap" out of the turn (indeed, in a furtive way, a little more noisy, which corresponds to the cooling that you mention, it was almost like a re-start).

To 350 000, I had a start-up problem and I was told by a diesel specialist that it was a solenoid valve inside the pump. The aim was to achieve certain values ​​in terms of normalized consumption / CO² emission, by cutting the injection in the engine brake position.

On the ZX, I didn't have this phenomenon. This "restart" noise.

[The motor bases were the same, the 1,9 D from the XUD].

So I deduced - but not checked - that on the ZX, there was not this break. That the injection seemed to continue, even when I raised my foot ...

I can imagine being wrong! I do not know if they were Bosch. Rotative, that's for sure.
0 x
jonule
Econologue expert
Econologue expert
posts: 2404
Registration: 15/03/05, 12:11




by jonule » 11/09/13, 10:47

jonule wrote:to set the ignition advance? =)


I just read the experiences of Edenguard, hast thou read, Chatelot16?

www.onpeutlefaire.com/forum/ subject / 13900 ... e-water-etc /

I think aau to disappoint you, a conventional engine can not operate directly HHO for a silly reason, Miss mixture is explosive, you have the same problem if you wanted to run a diesel engine on gasoline, there are self inflammation and more flamma the propagation speed is too high.
So, too much compression, but it is difficult to change or he must find a way to make a gas mixture that is not explosive ... not easy. I am convinced that the HHO work in diesel cycle without ignition and low compression (2 or 3). Already tried disconnecting the spark plug, it should be something going on.


http://www.edenguard.fr/Experiences/HHOIgnition.php

this to say that there is an interesting orifice to exploit on a diesel: the glow plugs ... in the center of the pre-chamber of combustion, moreover.

how to start in winter then, without glow plugs? Ben at the start pilot! =) I'm kidding, gas.
0 x
jonule
Econologue expert
Econologue expert
posts: 2404
Registration: 15/03/05, 12:11




by jonule » 13/09/13, 14:51

Image
1: The gaseous fuel is stored in an O-tank equipped with a safety valve, at a pressure of approximately 200 bar;
2 & 3: When the vehicle is moving in CNG mode, the gas passes through a solenoid valve which regulates the flow in a pressure reducer, the gas is reduced to approximately 1 bar;
4: A diffuser-filter is in charge of distributing ideally the quantity of gas towards the injectors;
5 & ​​6: Injectors connected to the intake manifold send gas to the engine's combustion chambers;
7: a dashboard control allows the user to choose whether to run on gas or gasoline;
A computer (A) connected to the original wiring harness protected by its own fuse (B), manages the system informed by various sensors (C & D) and gives the gas level (E)
Filling the gas (F)
http://www.famauto.fr/page_blank_systeme_gnv.htm

finally, even a plane flies to biogas!
http://www.afgnv.info/Un-avion-vole-au-GNV-_a347.html
0 x
User avatar
Did67
Moderator
Moderator
posts: 20362
Registration: 20/01/08, 16:34
Location: Alsace
x 8685




by Did67 » 13/09/13, 15:48

You always assimilate CNG to "biogas".

Do we hear:

- the product commonly known as "natural gas" is almost pure methane, from fossil deposits; when compressed in stations for use in vehicles, it is agreed to call it CNG

- biogas or "biomethane" comes from the fermentation of organic matter, waste; it's a mixed of methane, CO² and a few other gases, including H2S, extremely toxic (the dead horse in decomposing algae in Brittany!) and extremely toxic (stainless steel "oxidizes" like any steel which " rust")

- sometimes, this compressed "biomethane" is called "green GNV" or GNVert (trade mark: http://www.gnvert-gdfsuez.com/)!

I agree that all this is not standardized!

And of course, the "etchnologies" are comparable (but beware of corrosion, adjustments, the auto-ignition point is not at all the same) ...

Simply, unless you know the situation, nothing says that this plane was flying on "biomethane"! In any case, I did not read this precision ...
0 x
User avatar
chatelot16
Econologue expert
Econologue expert
posts: 6960
Registration: 11/11/07, 17:33
Location: Angouleme
x 264




by chatelot16 » 13/09/13, 16:09

in any case to compress the biomethane it must be purified perfectly, and once well purified it is exactly the same as natural gas

the real question is the profitability of this purification: if the material is too luxurious conforms to all the norms it is too expensive to be profitable

if the material is cheap DIY, it is not standard and impossible to use it on a large scale

so that the instalation capable of injecting biomethane into the SFM network is rare, I do not even know if there really is one in France
0 x
jonule
Econologue expert
Econologue expert
posts: 2404
Registration: 15/03/05, 12:11




by jonule » 13/09/13, 16:31

Oh yes, but in France the GNV has not started there even 10 years!

I remember numbers 5 years ago: 4000 methanizer installations in Germany, 4 in France!

but in Sweden, they have several vehicles, a train running on biogas, biogas as a mandatory biofuel, etc.

and of course 100% biomethane CNG stations (2010 article):
"
There was 31 / 12 / 2009 23 000 vehicles running on natural gas in Sweden. They are refueling at 104 stations, and they consumed last year, 67 million m³ of natural gas (NGV). This volume is up 16% compared to 2008, but a larger figure is that within this amount of CNG, the proportion of biogas is also rising. 27%, to achieve that 65% of the GNV consumed in Sweden is of renewable origin. This is often biogas from the methanization of organic waste, and some stations put the fact forward, selling pure biogas, uncut with natural gas of fossil origin. The bulk of the biogas is however mixed, but we remember that Sweden has a fleet of 23 000 vehicles can drive with renewable energy (not counting those that run on E85), and that the production capacity of said Renewable energy is the consumption of 15 000 vehicles.
"
http://www.moteurnature.com/actu/uneact ... s_id=25381

then, would the Swedes know how to do better than the French, who invented nuclear electricity?

no, they do not have the same culture or the same (infrastructure) policy, so the same lobbies either ...

Did67 wrote:You always assimilate CNG to "biogas".

yes, because as chatelot says, once the biogas is incorporated in the CNG network, it is GNV. what matters is that this share of biogas increases, just like wind turbines in the electricity grid.
otherwise we would speak of a "bioNGV" or "wind" vehicle, which does not make sense.

> chatelot16, on the posted graph, the "5" is what electronically controls the injection of gas into the cylinders through the intake pipes of each cylinder, via the "5" injectors (solenoid valves)? is it connected to the computer, like any injection box? (type E85, tunning ..)
0 x
jonule
Econologue expert
Econologue expert
posts: 2404
Registration: 15/03/05, 12:11




by jonule » 13/09/13, 16:33

Did67 wrote:- biogas or "biomethane" comes from the fermentation of organic matter, waste; it's a mixed of methane, CO² and a few other gases, including H2S, extremely toxic (the dead horse in decomposing algae in Brittany!) and extremely toxic (stainless steel "oxidizes" like any steel which " rust")

and even by burning it, you find the pollutants in the atmosphere ...

talking about seaweed and slurry, that's how the Vietnamese do, for 35 € you have your methanizer:
http://www.mekongplus.org/fr/actionsfr/ ... tAodGiwAXg

explanations:
http://www.mekongplus.org/doc/2003-08-1 ... ietnam.pdf

installation:
http://www.mekongplus.org/doc/2008-07-0 ... talled.pdf

but then, how do Bretons do it? they cook electric? =)
0 x
dede2002
Grand Econologue
Grand Econologue
posts: 1111
Registration: 10/10/13, 16:30
Location: Geneva countryside
x 189




by dede2002 » 30/11/13, 10:19

Hello everybody,

I wonder about the diesel-Otto hybrid combustion?

Diesel requiring excess air, 2 / 1 memory on older engines at the smoke limit, and the gas burns only around lambda1.

Are there not too many noises in the exhaust?
And a conflict for oxygen between the two fuels?

In Switzerland urban buses run on natural gas, but in the Otto cycle with an ignition instead of the injectors. We recognize them with the smell when we are behind, not unpleasant but particular (it reminds me of sprayed antifreeze).
After thinking it was several years ago, I did not smell this smell recently, but it was a driver who told me they were doing gas tests. I guess they have made progress since then.

The gnv in Switzerland contains "obligatorily" 10% of biogas, 20% on average, on the other hand the town gas does not contain any (at least in Geneva where one can choose a mix with 10%, against supplement of 1 ct / kWh).
This is theoretical because it is the same gas for everyone, simply the supplier agrees to buy as much biogas it bills customers who choose it.


Have a nice day
0 x
User avatar
Did67
Moderator
Moderator
posts: 20362
Registration: 20/01/08, 16:34
Location: Alsace
x 8685




by Did67 » 30/11/13, 17:15

It seems to me that there are quite a few cities that have compressed NGV buses. I recognize them to a kind of baggage rack, which cigars elongated bottles ...

In France, a new bus out of three rolls today with GNV.
Half of the cities over 200 000 inhabitants have retained the GNV. Today, nearly 30 cities have chosen this fuel. Among them, we can mention Bordeaux, Dunkirk, Lille, Montpellier, Nancy, Nantes, Nice, Paris, Poitiers, Strasbourg, Valencia ...


in: http://www.gazdebordeaux.fr/professionn ... rdeaux.php


AND:

http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irisbus_Citelis

[it would be Diesel CNG]

Note that there are also "biogas" tractors: http://www.valtra.fr/news/2619.asp

[this is a "Dualfuel", which still uses a micro-injection of diesel fuel to ignite the CNG]

http://www.terre-net.fr/forum-agricole/ ... s&t=243546

[it's a "hybrid": part diesel / part biogas]
0 x
dede2002
Grand Econologue
Grand Econologue
posts: 1111
Registration: 10/10/13, 16:30
Location: Geneva countryside
x 189




by dede2002 » 01/12/13, 12:36

Interesting, thank you :D

Apparently the buses are running in the Otto cycle (no bi-fueling), and the system is tuning for tractors.

More efficient I want to believe it, in Diesel mode the filling of the cylinder is maximum even at low load, unlike the mode Otto (throttle butterfly).

I think that for urban buses, the toxicity of the exhaust gas is a more important criterion than the energy efficiency, the combustion is better mastered in Otto mode, no particles, and especially no residual oxygen to form NOx.
0 x

 


  • Similar topics
    Replies
    views
    Last message

Back to "biofuels, biofuels, biofuels, BtL, non-fossil alternative fuels ..."

Who is online ?

Users browsing this forum : No registered users and 144 guests