I spent a lot of time in forums Americans to find information about the compatibility or not of the E85 with our gasoline cars.
In these forums who finds there the same concerns as with us, namely corrosion and the fact that American cars are not like Brazilian cars.
The official position is the same as here, it should not be done, for the same reasons
I was surprised to see there as many people passionate about ecology, as the Americans are not necessarily in the image of their society.
Many cars work very well with FullFlex Kits at 100%, so I found no problem with corrosion.
I inquired by buying a Kit, the seller told me that if I stay below 50% ethanol I did not need to buy this Kit, my car would work very well like that.
The EPA itself confirms that a factory car after 1980 supports the E10 standard.
Obviously it concerns the USA, but I wrote to Peugeot who refuses to answer on the compatibility of E85 with my car, they do not say that it does not work, they say they did not do tests, but I had confirmation that my car is E10 standard.
I have not found any exact date of the E10 standard in France.
Groupe Borel, known in the GPL installation, has launched FlexFluel Kits, certifies the legality of the installation and, following concerns about corrosion, joints, they even offer insurance.
Regarding the rest magnesium, aluminum, I would answer tomorrow, I do not have the source at hand, but I have a copy in the office.
A system very well made of the problem with pros and cons, and a priori without bias.
Oh yes, I forgot; I roll at ~ 50% E85, E40 in short, I made no changes.
This since January, my car runs as before, overconsumption of 7%.
Biofuels and gasoline engine
This is a summary that my parrue pretty relevant
from
http://forum.pacte-ecologique-2007.org/ ... ?pid=11231
You will find there the arguments "For" and the arguments "Against"
from
http://forum.pacte-ecologique-2007.org/ ... ?pid=11231
You will find there the arguments "For" and the arguments "Against"
ReasonOuPassion wrote:
E85: bioethanol
E85 is an ethanol-gasoline mixture containing 85% ethanol for 15% gasoline. It is widely used in Sweden, Brazil and is becoming more common in the USA. In France, a working group appointed by Thierry Breton, Minister of the Economy and Finance and chaired by Alain Prost, released his "Flexfuel 2010" report recommending the use of E85 for economic reasons, of course, but also for environmental reasons.
At the 2006 World Motor Show, Saab, Ford and Peugeot in particular announced the marketing of flex-fuel vehicles, which could use either gasoline and / or E85 as fuel.
SPECIFICITIES OF FLEX-FUEL VEHICLES (Flex-Fuel Vehicle = FFV)
The equipment that differentiates flex-fuel vehicles from standard gasoline vehicles is as follows:
- No magnesium, aluminum, cork or rubber in the fuel system.
- Fuel pump adapted to an electrically conductive fuel.
- Motor elements specially treated against wear.
- Larger injectors (to inject 30% more fuel).
- Stainless steel or plastic pipes adapted.
- Stainless steel or plastic tank adapted.
- Sometimes, use of anti-acid oil.
- Explosion-proof submersible gas pumps.
- Sometimes, tank filling pipe equipped with a flame back.
The first FFV was a model of the Ford T created so that farmers in the Midwest can make their fuel! The carburetor was designed so that the driver can change the wealth very easily from the driving position depending on the fuel used.
The current FFV have of course injection systems able to adapt to the fuel automatically.
GM has developed a flex-fuel turbo engine (BioPower) which is very interesting: the regulation of the turbo adapts to the fuel to take advantage of the better octane number of the E85. The performance is better when the car turns to E85.
USE OF E85 IN A STANDARD MOTOR
The main advantage of riding at E85 is that it is a renewable energy that, moreover, reduces our energy dependence on foreign countries.
E85 has an octane number of 105, which is higher than that of 85 to 98 that is commonly found. On the other hand, its combustion is less efficient and there is 28% less energy in a liter of E85 than in a liter of gasoline. Nevertheless, it has been found that consumption only increases by 25% while driving at E85.
Modern cars with electronic fuel injection and lambda sensor can smoothly adjust the air / fuel mixture with moderate use of E85 in the tank, but with some performance effects, but without failure or damage.
For a mixture of more than 50% ethanol, the check engine light (CEL) will probably light up which means that the electronic control unit (ECU) no longer has the means to enrich enough mixing. Adding more ethanol to the tank would bring nothing if not constant overconsumption and rapid deterioration of the catalyst. It is therefore possible to drive E85 in these vehicles, but it is important not to exceed the limit at which the CEL illuminates, ie as long as the ECU is able to guarantee stoichiometric mixing.
That said, even when the CEL does not light up, the ethanol combustion gives off less heat and the catalyst will take longer to reach the 300 ° C it needs to operate normally. Petrol vehicles that run with E85 remain outside the pollution standards in the heating phase. Once the catalyst is hot and as long as there is not too much ethanol in the fuel (ie, the CEL light remains off) the vehicle meets the standards.
The E85 gives good results in turbo engines thanks to their high octane number: the yield becomes better because the ECU can calculate a better curve of advance and especially, it is not necessary to enrich as much the air / fuel mixture only with gasoline. This results in less overconsumption than with an atmospheric engine.
THE RISKS
E85 can cause corrosion of metal parts and damage the seals in old engines (especially before 1988). The hydroxyl group of the ethanol molecule is particularly acidic and can attack certain natural materials. For vehicles according to 1988, the components are designed to withstand 10% ethanol in gasoline (sold under the name E10 in the US) and we no longer find magnesium, aluminum, rubber and cork in direct contact with the fuel. According to the vehicle brands, since 1988 there is more or less the possibility of increasing the percentage of ethanol in gasoline and in general up to 20% ethanol is not a problem.
In addition to corrosion, there may be a significant risk of wear using more than 10% ethanol in a standard vehicle and in the case of water in the tank. Indeed, for a proportion of 1% water in E85, there is a risk that gasoline and ethanol (diluted with water) separate. In addition, the combustion of ethanol + water and gasoline (especially when the engine is cold) produces a large amount of formic acid (HCOOH or CH2O2), also called methanoic acid) and, in a smaller amount, acetaldehyde (CH3CHO) and acetic acid (C2H4O2). Formic acid would cause rapid engine wear.
The engines studied for E85 have nitrided mechanical elements to resist formic acid. The oil used by the Chrysler Group in these engines also contains an acid neutralizer.
When using E85 contaminated with water in a vehicle that is not suitable for E85, the first thing to do is to drain the tank, bleed the lines and change the engine oil.
More than 1% water in the tank still remains a rare event, the risk is quite minimal, except in the case where the E85 is manufactured by the used. Distillation of the alcohol can give only a purity of 95.6% (the mixture alcohol water is said to be azeotropic in these proportions, that is to say that an additional distillation could not give a more pure alcohol) and this is not enough to guarantee dilution in gasoline or to prevent the formation of formic acid during combustion. There are more or less energy consuming processes (so more or less profitable in the end) or complex to purify ethanol but they are reserved for industrialists.
Another risk of driving with E85 in a vehicle not provided for this purpose: the air / fuel mixture too poor. For engines with carburettor or mechanical injection, without modification, the mixture will be so poor that there is no risk of overheating, the air arrived surplus greatly reduces the combustion temperature and cools the gas. 'exhaust. Only the catalyst can not rise in temperature and could be damaged by the excess oxygen. But anyway, the engine would not run well.
On the other hand, there are slightly poor mixing conditions where the air / fuel mixture is between the stoichiometric mixture and that which gives the maximum power of an engine. This power is not exploitable to gasoline because the overheating it generates causes detonations. But mixing ethanol with gasoline in certain proportions can cause a carburettor or mechanical injection engine to run in these poor conditions and as the risks of detonation are reduced with ethanol (higher octane number) and it becomes possible to drive for a long time at very high temperatures without realizing it which could destroy the pistons, melt the candles and the valves. Without means of controlling the richness of the mixture, the temperature of the exhaust gas, the temperature at the cylinder heads, the pressure in the combustion chambers and the amount of oxygen in the exhaust, it is difficult to know if the engine runs in acceptable conditions or is in a "red zone". Electronic injections eliminate this risk because the "check engine" warning light (CEL) will prevent abnormal operation and it will be sufficient to add a few liters of gasoline in the tank to correct the problem.
JURISDICTIONS RECOMMENDING THE E85
For 2013, some US states have already forecast a minimum of 20% ethanol in all species. The City of Portland will be offering bioethanol and biodiesel at all of its gas stations instead of its petroleum equivalent by 2009. Negotiations around the manufacturer's warranty issues, which only provided for the use of 10% ethanol in the fuel, are still ongoing.
For its part, Brazil continues slowly its conversion to ethanol considering that the change to 20% ethanol in standard gasoline had only a few effects on the oldest cars, that the change to 22% was still safe for the mechanics and so chose to switch recently to 24% ethanol in all species at the pump.
For France and Europe, here are the 10 proposals presented by the “Flexfuel 2010 ″ working group, chaired by Alain Prost, on the generalization in France of bioethanol E85:
1 - Define an E85 Standard at National Level Prior to 31 December 2006.
2 - Authorize the sale of E85 to individuals and professionals across the country at 1er January 2007.
3 - Set E85 taxation at the lowest level allowed by European directives.
4 - Signature of a “charter for the development of E85” committing all the players in the sector (manufacturers, distributors, farmers).
5 - Support independent operators of service stations to equip themselves with "green pumps".
6 - Inform consumers about the specifics of flexfuel vehicles and E85 fuel through coordinated communication between state, automakers and fuel distributors.
7 - Adopt a set of tax incentives for the acquisition of flexfuel vehicles by companies: accelerated depreciation, reduction of the vehicle tax.
8 - Encourage local authorities to promote the use of flexfuel vehicles through full or partial exemption from the gray card proportional tax and reduced parking fees.
9 - Reduce, for flexfuel vehicles, the additional fee on gray cards.
10 - Contributing by the policy of public procurement to the development of the market
flexfuel vehicles: definition of multi-year objectives for the purchase of flexfuel vehicles by state administrations.
CONVERSION OF A FLEX-FUEL GASOLINE VEHICLE
In the US and in Europe, approval is required to allow the installation of a flex-fuel conversion kit to a car. Each engine for each model of vehicle must have its specific approval. This is as difficult and costly as for a gas installation (CNG or LPG) even if the technical constraints are not the same, because all the safety and rolling tests must be validated. In the USA, once a kit is approved, the end customer pays 750 $ for a visit to the mines.
For now, only a Brazilian conversion kit is available on the US market for 4, 6, 8 cylinders. This kit operates on the injection by proposing an injection mode for gasoline and one for ethanol with an increase in the opening times of the injectors to enrich the mixture when the ethanol mode is activated.
But this kit is not absolutely necessary. The most important thing is to replace all rubber in contact with the fuel, and make sure the fuel tank and fuel lines are not galvanized. Next, make sure that the fuel pump and injection system can deliver 25 to 30% more fuel. For compatibility with E85, pumps and injectors should support ethanol as manufacturers build compatible components since the 80 years. At the beginning of the use of E85 in a vehicle, it is possible that the alcohol takes off all deposits that have been in the circuit by gasoline or in the tank. It will be necessary to check and change the fuel filter after 1000km.
For a carbureted vehicle, it will increase the size of 11.8 14% sprinklers, which will increase the fuel flow of 25-30%. The wealth of slow motion will also have to be corrected.
For even older vehicles (before 1980), after changing the carburetor seals that contain rubber or cork, a somewhat barbaric solution to increase the richness could just be to keep the choke valve slightly closed.
For modern injection vehicles, it is possible to increase the injector flow simply by increasing the injection pressure. There are "boosters" in the trade.
The disadvantage of these transformations is that they are not reversible without dismantling or adding parts and that it is necessary to use a fuel with a constant ethanol content.
COMPARISON OF AIR / FUEL MIXTURES
To obtain a stoichiometric mixture with E85, 27 at 30% more fuel is needed compared to gasoline. Flex-fuel vehicles are therefore able to deliver the right mixture whatever the proportion of ethanol in the fuel.
For gasoline, the theoretical stoichiometric air / fuel mixture is 14.64 for 1 (in bulk, not in volume). In practice, the report is from 14.7 in order to save substantially energy.
To have a stoichiometric mixture with E85, the coefficient passes to 9.725 for 1.
But ethanol does not promote cold starts and E85 at the pump is not the same in summer and winter! To facilitate cold starts, the proportion of ethanol increases to 70% during the winter. Although it is sold under the name E85, it is actually E70. The stoichiometric mixture then becomes 10.6975 for 1.
Another influence: the volatility of ethanol and gasoline is different. A mixture will therefore have its proportions modified according to whether it is old or not.
The injection of a regular petrol vehicle is designed to deliver a mixture that can vary from 10 to 18 for 1. That's why up to 50% of E85 in the tank, a non-FFV gasoline vehicle can run, provided it does not require cold starts or extreme load conditions.
We then realize that, to have an exact stoichiometric mixture without it being possible to know the exact proportion of ethanol in gasoline, it is necessary to control the combustion permanently using a lambda probe. .
ENVIRONMENTAL BENEFITS
Ethanol is a renewable fuel because it is produced from plants. In addition, its combustion is cleaner and more complete than that of gasoline or diesel fuel. According to some studies, it produces less carbon monoxide emissions during a complete life cycle.
Ethanol contributes to the reduction of greenhouse gas emissions because the grains and other biomass resources used to produce it absorb carbon dioxide during their growth. Although the conversion of biomass to ethanol and the combustion of ethanol produce emissions, its use produces fewer greenhouse gas emissions than fossil fuels such as gasoline. This difference is attributable to the materials and fuels used to produce it. In Canada, factories that manufacture ethanol from corn and wheat are fueled by natural gas and produce greenhouse gas emissions. The net environmental benefit (over a full life cycle) associated with the use of E85 is therefore lower. On the other hand, this production of emissions is offset by the fact that plants absorb carbon during their growth. In the United States, a large number of ethanol plants are fueled by coal or other fossil fuels, reducing the overall advantage of ethanol over gasoline.
Greenhouse gas emissions from E-10 fuel made from corn are reduced by approximately 3 to 4 p. 100 compared to gasoline, but the cost and octane number of this fuel are similar to those of gasoline. Emissions from E-10 fuel made from woody or agricultural cellulosic materials are lower than 6 at 8 p. 100 to those from gasoline, and emissions produced by E-85 fuel made from cellulose are lower than 75 p. 100. A Canadian company is using enzymatic technology to convert cellulosic biomass to ethanol at its demonstration plant in Ottawa, Ontario.
Even though ethanol is produced from corn, its use for the automobile will inevitably have positive effects on the reduction of greenhouse gas production and it is likely that the improvement of the manufacturing processes of Ethanol will only make it even better.
POWER AND USE IN COMPETITION
E85 can develop more power than gasoline, especially in engines with a high compression ratio. In a flex-fuel engine, a power increase of 5% is usually found when using E85. Aviation tests give similar results.
Many associations or federations of motorsports are pushed to no longer use high octane gasoline containing lead and E85 is envisaged in replacement.
For the dragster, in 2006 the National Street Car Association (NSCA) has approved the use of E85 in two of the most popular classes (American Muscle Car and Street Machine). The NHRA (National Hot Rod Association) allows ethanol in several of these categories: bracket classes, Hotrod, Modified, ProFWD, Pro RWD.
In IRL, the fuel used was until now methanol. In 2006, the fuel became a mixture 10% ethanol 90% methanol. For 2007, the fuel will be 100% ethanol.
Talks are also underway in NASCAR and E85 could quickly take place in some subcategories.
The Australian V8 Supercar have also switched to an ethanol-gasoline blend.
CONCLUSION
In conclusion, E85 is the ideal fuel for economic, environmental and even performance reasons. However, there are many who have reservations about the possibilities of producing enough ethanol. Alain Prost replied that we should not think in the short term: "The development of ethanol will not draw from food reserves. It will take a long time for the 100% ethanol to develop. In the meantime, new generations of energies will be discovered. And if we get there, it will be a huge success for alternative energies. (Interviewed by Héloïse Léon)
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JAPREN> I don't believe I have betrayed any great secrets, everything I am telling is in the Renault document available on the CNAM website. Armed with "Fuels & Engines" from Guibet, we come to what I say ...;)
For the last time and in response to the above summary: THERE IS NO E85 IN BRAZIL! and I note the notable lack of the presence of a device for the recognition of ethanol content in the list of modifications to be provided on a Flex Fuel vehicle.
For the last time and in response to the above summary: THERE IS NO E85 IN BRAZIL! and I note the notable lack of the presence of a device for the recognition of ethanol content in the list of modifications to be provided on a Flex Fuel vehicle.
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Henorm wrote:THERE IS NO E85 IN BRAZIL!
It's true the ethanol dispensed at the pump in Brazil is almost pure
96% Ethanol 4% water ~ E96
And other correction no need for new homologation of the vehicle
I update the list of sellers and installers
The prices are all around 600 Euros.
Ask for installation, some may even come to your home for installation at 60 Euros
Price depending on installer and your location.
They are professionals registered in the commercial register.
The operation is legal, and does not require a new homologation of the vehicle.
The 4 cylinder kit Excluding installation
code: Select all
http://www.borel.fr
Kit Automatique FullFlex (580 Euros)
http://www.echomeca.com
Kit Automatique FullFuel (565 Euros)
http://flex-e85.net
Kit Automatique ABCesso (598 Euros)
Kit Manuel FlexTek (420 Euros)
http://www.fullflex.fr
Kit Automatique FullFlex (580 Euros)
http://www.seeflex.fr
Kit Automatique FullFlex (598 Euros)
The Kit ABCesso calibrates itself, and adjusts to the fair thanks to its connection to the Lambda probe, runs from 0 to 100% ethanol
The Kit Fullflex must be calibrated, then it adapts to the mixture of 0 100 ethanol%
The Kit FlexTek is manual we select <50 or> 50% Ethanol, it is your electronic injection which makes the intermediate settings.
It is less precise, and consume more than an automatic kit.
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- I learn econologic
- posts: 15
- Registration: 13/06/07, 08:41
- Location: IDF
- x 1
alcohol!
LO
I had not seen this message before ...
so for a gasoline engine you have to put alcohol!
so methanol can be ok!
it's the foot.
and my beer works too; op
@ +
I had not seen this message before ...
so for a gasoline engine you have to put alcohol!
so methanol can be ok!
it's the foot.
and my beer works too; op
@ +
0 x
Céline OLERON
Nature Animator
Courbevoie
Nature Animator
Courbevoie
Re: alcohol!
Céline OLERON wrote:so for a gasoline engine you have to put alcohol!
so methanol can be ok!
Especially not, you have to put E85, and avoid the fuel craft that may be impure or aggressive
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- I learn econologic
- posts: 15
- Registration: 13/06/07, 08:41
- Location: IDF
- x 1
E85
you're a total pro ????
can you give me the exact chemical formula of E85?
can you give me the exact chemical formula of E85?
0 x
Céline OLERON
Nature Animator
Courbevoie
Nature Animator
Courbevoie
-
- I learn econologic
- posts: 15
- Registration: 13/06/07, 08:41
- Location: IDF
- x 1
Re: E85
Céline OLERON wrote:you're a total pro ????
can you give me the exact chemical formula of E85?
Not at all, but our cars are being studied for ethanol incorporated in the SP95
Thanks to the experience of Brazil, USA, and Germany, we stand back on
On Methanol, we have nothing, so it's risky.
Better to test on a mower than on a car.
E85 is 85% ethanol and 15% of SP95
Ethanol: C2H6O
0 x
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- I learn econologic
- posts: 15
- Registration: 13/06/07, 08:41
- Location: IDF
- x 1
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