Bioethanol 1,3 times worse than petrol?

crude vegetable oil, diester, bio-ethanol or other biofuels, or fuel of vegetable origin ...
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nonoLeRobot
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Bioethanol 1,3 times worse than petrol?




by nonoLeRobot » 19/09/07, 10:31

In the LACQ plant, the ecological performance of ethanol would be much worse than that of gasoline.

http://www.amisdelaterre.org/Usine-de-b ... mment.html


I knew that the yields were much lower than what was predicted, I did not know that it was much worse than gasoline itself.
Do you have any info above to confirm or deny.
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by Christophe » 19/09/07, 10:42

Mmm and one more article :)

As much for ETBE we knew it was negative, as much for ethanol it seemed to balance ... Selected pieces of the article:

shows that the production of ethanol from corn kernels would only bring about a 10% reduction in CO2 for a vehicle running on 4% ethanol in petrol


Again: according to the source of the study, the figures diverge ... it is very unfortunate all this ...

we arrive at 1,3 liters of petroleum used to deliver a liter of ethanol, therefore a negative energy balance!


I still drive the point home: energetically, a liter of ethanol contains 80% of the energy of an L of gasoline ... it would therefore be necessary to correct this figure to obtain: 1.63! : Evil:

to get a kilo of corn, you need 300 liters of water and you need 3 kg of corn to produce one liter of ethanol.


To compare with the water consumed for the production of one L of gasoline ...

In any event, the tax effort per job “created” or maintained is considerable: 60 euros per job for tax exemption, to which should be added an even higher sum of around 000 euros, for of the TAGP (General Tax on Polluting Activities) under the conditions of last June ”


You have to explain it to me: if we consume 1,3 L of petroleum (well taxed him) to make 1 L of ethanol, where is the state loss?

"It would be problematic for large investments to be made by current biofuel producers when new products could compete with them before investments are even paid off."


Well it's your fault guys, we had to think better and choose the right solutions from the start ... Should we understand this sentence by: "A reason for us to lobby to crush the competition"? (biofuel algae in particular) : Evil:

The only purpose of this project, you will understand, is not the protection of the environment but as Sud-Ouest said (09/12/06) “an opportunity to sell part of the regional corn”


Ah well here I understand better : Mrgreen:
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by nonoLeRobot » 19/09/07, 10:49

Good then it is confirmed !!!

: Evil: : Evil:




Explain it to me: if we consume 1,3 L of petroleum (well taxed him) to make 1 L of ethanol, where is the state loss?


No more thought than that but the farmers are hardly taxed on their diesel. And for the production of fertilizers I do not think that it is taxed either. If it came to the same thing, with additional processing done by the factory, the cost price per liter should be 1,3 times the price of basic gasoline + the cost of treatment. Which is clearly not the selling price.
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by Christophe » 19/09/07, 11:30

For the selling price, this is precisely what makes the € 60 per job of (supposedly) lack of tax revenue.

Remember this: https://www.econologie.com/taxation-fisc ... -3471.html

60% tax on an L of fuel, so easy to "lower" the prices ...

But do not worry, the state takes money everywhere (IS, IPP, VAT ...) I doubt that it is so losing that in this case ...otherwise he would not have pushed for this technological choice!

It is precisely the same thing as the safety hole: we count that what we leave by forgetting what we return ... a little easy in this case to bias the judgments ...
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by abyssin3 » 19/09/07, 11:52

we arrive at 1,3 liters of petroleum used to deliver a liter of ethanol, therefore a negative energy balance!

According to my memories, it takes (according to the ademe) precisely 1.3L of petroleum to arrive at 1L in the tank : Shock: including refining + transport.
Once in the tank, it is better to have 1L of ethanol than petroleum ...
On the other hand if they have corn grown on another continent (++ transport) as they bring vegetable oil from Asia to make biodiesel, it's not surprising.
I would be curious to see the yield of ethanol if it were produced exactly as in Brazil, where the distillation is done by burning the rest of the sugar cane ...
The environment is more often a matter of common sense than of "CO2 efficiency".
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by bobono » 19/09/07, 12:13

It is important to understand that the gain is not direct for agricultural production. Everything that is used to make this biofuel cannot be found when you need to subsidize it to dispense it at the end of the world. Farmers derive a great benefit since it creates demand or shortage of raw material cereals but therefore skyrockets.
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by elephant » 19/09/07, 12:13

have we ever thought of distilling ethanol using solar energy?

this should not be difficult, given the low temperatures required.
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by jean63 » 19/09/07, 15:37

At SAAB, they did not do the same calculation ===>
http://www.plusplusplus.fr/
http://www.saab.fr/main/FR/fr/dyc/93_S/step2.shtml (choose "linear", "1,8t Biopower" and "learn more ....")

Fuel consumption in liters / 100 km *: 10.5 / 5.7 / 7.5 in BVM6 / 11.9 / 6.5 / 8.5 in BVA6 (petrol data)
CO2 emission g / km mixed: 178 in BVM6 and 205 in BVA6 (petrol data)
: In fact, a Saab BioPower emits 35 to 50 g / km of fossil CO² when it runs on E85 superethanol. These fossil CO² emissions are the 15% gasoline emissions contained in E85 superethanol. These are Saab data, applied to Saab BioPowers running on E85 superethanol and may vary depending on the model. There is currently no European directive that imposes a framework for measuring fossil CO² emissions from cars running on E85 superethanol. We therefore cannot include detailed emission data for Saab BioPowers.


the question is where do they get ethanol in Sweden? they may have natural springs from the ground.

What can be said as. Ringtones to sell at any price. We are badly crossed: it melts full pot in the North: glaciers in Greenland, permafrost .....

and that found in an article of Friends of the Earth (see link on article relating to the production of etha nol in Lacq .. bottom of page) ==>
We can be worried when we know that the amount of grain needed to fill a 4x4 tank is enough to feed a human being for a year. Biofuels are nothing more than a sophisticated way to subsidize the burning of food to run cars.
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by jonule » 20/09/07, 10:02

before transforming into alcohol, it must be fermented!
like any production of alcohol, gnole etc ...
and fermentation releases ......... GHG .....
use sugar cane waste certainly, but when we don't have it?
there remains the idea of ​​course! : Cheesy: :?

figures already given for a long time:
1 liter of oil produced 0.9 liter of oil (refining, transport ...)
in the 2 liters of ETBE (bioethanol), 3 to 4 liters of diester (alcohol-oil esterification) and 5 liters of PVH (pure or crude vegetable oil).

and to say that they sell "BIO" bioethanol fireplaces ... it remains to invent the recycling of ideas now : Lol:
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by abyssin3 » 20/09/07, 10:46

jonule wrote:fermentation releases ......... GHG .....

Yes, but it does not release more than the plant could not absorb to produce the raw material. So it's integrated into the natural cycle and if there is an emission, the overall balance of emissions remains negative.
Ditto for human respiration ...
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