Agro-Biofuels: Overall Performance

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Elec
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by Elec » 19/01/09, 00:11

minguinhirigue wrote: Where do you get the 0,5% photosynthetic yield values?


http://www.ecologie.gouv.fr/IMG/pdf/Agr ... nement.pdf
(report Agrofuels and Environment, December 2008, Ministry of Ecology)

113 page: "With solar photosynthetic conversion yields of less than 0,5%, the energy power of biomass is between 0,01 W / m2 and 1,2 W / m2 (Smil, 2003 *)."

* Smil, V. 2003, Energy at the Crossroads, MIT Press, Cambridge, Ma.

It is very easily verifiable by calculation.

minguinhirigue wrote: the demand for biofuels can be limited to 20% of current consumption for long trips only
Such a goal of 20% would lead to catastrophic environmental and social consequences: huge consumption of water, massive chemical pollution (pesticides, fertilizers), impact on biodiversity, health, food prices, etc.
And remember that the liter of agro-biofuel, excluding subsidies, is very expensive.

minguinhirigue wrote: ] Micro-algae are around 4 at 6% in good conditions and with a theoretical maximum of 11% ... and recent bioreactors type 3DMS give results in the order of 200 tep / ha / year (in Arizona, but still ...;)) !?


Thank you for the link to Greenfuel, I know, they have also published one of my papers on microalgae on their website (paper translated into English):
http://www.greenfuelonline.com/gf_files/algaefuel.pdf

In the report Agrofuels and Environment, December 2008, Ministry of Ecology, you can read this:

"Third-generation agrofuels, ACG3, based on algae (...) would be around 3 W / m2, ie at run-of-river hydropower level. Wind energy has power. energy nearly ten times higher, between 5 and 20 W / m2, and mountain hydropower is between 10 and 50 W / m2. "
http://www.ecologie.gouv.fr/IMG/pdf/Agr ... nement.pdf (page 113)

Conclusion:
- even the best-performing photosynthetic organisms (some microalgae species) have a lower conversion efficiency than solar PV or CSP. [If we continue the study of the energy chain to the car, we have an additional correction factor of 4, related to the difference in efficiency between the electric motor and the thermal motor.]
- To note that cultivating the microalgae is very complex and very expensive and is strongly consumer, in water, in fertilizer, in antibiotics. Finally, the risks of environmental contamination by microalgal GMOs (+ other environmental impacts of crops) used have not been evaluated.

1 liter biodiesel microalgal = 10 euros according to the team Shamash, France = 1590 euros the barrel = 2270 dollars a barrel.

"Agrofuels are located in the lowest yield zone; they are in fact limited by the photosynthetic yield which is very low (<1%). The third generation, using algae, will remain much less efficient than any “electric” solutions, especially the use of solar energy."
http://www.ecologie.gouv.fr/IMG/pdf/Agr ... nement.pdf (8 page)

NB - For serious figures on the oil production of different photosynthetic organisms, see the 1 Table and the 2 table 296 page of this document:
http://www.agric.wa.gov.au/content/SUST ... oalgae.pdf
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Leo Maximus
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by Leo Maximus » 19/01/09, 11:21

Elec wrote:
Leo Maximus wrote:Of course, the electric would be ideal but the perfect battery does not exist yet and even if it exists one day it will still charge.

With an infrastructure in place, current batteries are ample. We have technology here and now. It is urgent to act, we do not have time to wait or, worse, waste our time with half or false solutions.

For Toyota as for Honda the hybrid car is a necessary intermediary between the classic thermal car and the electric car with hydrogen fuel cell.

Hydrogen is an excellent example of false solution.

1 - Electricity is transmitted at a speed of 273 000 km / s in copper (speed of information). A cargo ship loaded with compressed hydrogen circulates at about 20 knots, or 36 km / h.

2 - The electricity grid is already in place on a global scale, the hydrogen distribution network is non-existent.

3 - The large amount of energy required to obtain hydrogen from natural compounds (water, methane, biomass), to compress or liquefy it, to transfer this energy vector to the consumer, and the energy lost during conversion in electricity in fuel cells leads to an overall yield of only 25%.

1, 2 et3: What is the most interesting vector between electron and hydrogen?

I look forward to bringing the new generation of cheap electric cars to market with their Li-ion instant-charge batteries. 8)

The advantage of the fuel cell is that it allows an electric car on the one hand to have a significant autonomy, equal to that of a thermal, and on the other hand to have a time extremely short "load" suddenly the car is immediately available at all times.

The user, regardless of his intellectual level, sees the car as its practical side. Electricity travels very quickly in the drivers, almost as fast as in the void, it is extraordinary. I quietly put in charge of my hi-tech battery when I get home from work suddenly I get an urgent phone call: my daughter who is in high school at 25 terminals missed the last bus, I have to go and get her, it's banal, but the battery charge does not allow it so how do I do? I tell him that electricity travels in copper at 273 000 km / s and that it has to wait until tomorrow morning : Lol: ? Of course there is the solution taxis, neighbors, family but it's like I did not have a car.
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by Elec » 19/01/09, 20:58

The hydrogen chain leads to a huge energy waste: with a hydrogen economy based for example on solar energy, it would be necessary to 3 times more solar power plants than with electricity savings!

This inevitably translates into a much higher overall cost and a much higher environmental impact (no technology has a zero environmental balance).

Hydrogen is and will remain a very expensive fuel.
Dead end (solution only for niche applications).

I look forward to bringing the new generation of cheap electric cars to the market


In France, it's not for now: mentalities are not ready yet.

By cons in China, Denmark, Israel, California, Hawaii, Australia, Ontario, Japan, Tenesse, Oregon, Michigan, it will happen very quickly.

NB: with your example it is necessary that your job is 160 km from your home to be empty when returning home. From a statistical point of view, it is quite rare for people who live at 160km from their place of work;)
(for memory, with BP, you recharge your battery wherever it is parked)
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by minguinhirigue » 19/01/09, 22:24

Elec wrote:Conclusion:
- even the best-performing photosynthetic organisms (some microalgae species) have a lower conversion efficiency than solar PV or CSP. [If we continue the study of the energy chain to the car, we have an additional correction factor of 4, related to the difference in efficiency between the electric motor and the thermal motor.]

That I do not context, but we must take into account the possibility of rolling old cars, and to roll some vehicles over longer distances than 160 or 300 km possible with today's cutting-edge electric technologies ...

For these considerations, the energy density of the finished biofuels is not negligible ... Even if the whole production cycle assumes a conversion efficiency of solar energy (let us specify that it is not their only source of energy). energy, there are also essential nutrients in the environment ...) 8 10 times lower than that of photovoltaic and 20 50 times lower than that of CSP ...

Elec wrote:- To note that cultivating the microalgae is very complex and very expensive and is strongly consumer, in water, in fertilizer, in antibiotics. Finally, the risks of environmental contamination by microalgal GMOs (+ other environmental impacts of crops) used have not been evaluated.


I have handled botryococcus braunii and spirulina, I am not particularly talented, but it is possible to grow at home. For super yields, it may be complex but we have seen worse ... (a lab for the production of silicon cell for example ...)

In terms of water consumption, these are frequently crops that can accept brackish water. For the cost, it is partly linked to the scale of production (the productions are today experimental and rather close to artisanal practices ...).

For fertilizers, antibiotics and GMOs, the excesses of intensive post-war agriculture should serve as lessons to understand that there are other ways to grow plants. Free to agronomists to have a smart recoil ...

The fada who made me handle botryococcus and spirulina cultivates them with "nail juice", piss, coarse salt, and sometimes some plant juice in addition! This is enough to approach the ideal development environments! The oxygenation is done with a DIY mill with a bicycle, a small electric motor and solar panels! And yes, there was not enough wind above the pools ...

After I'm not against the electrical industry, far from it, I imagine it would be great that it covers in 30 years 80% of car travel and 90% of trips in common ...

But at the level of wind, micro-hydro, and solar coverage, there is still work ...
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by minguinhirigue » 19/01/09, 22:29

For hydrogen, Maximus, I think we have to wait to see if we produce enough in co-production energy:
- solar very high temperature?
- hypothetical nuclear fusion?

Before convincing results in these fields, to dwell on hydrogen is to waste energy by converting it into a falsely awesome vector ...
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by Elec » 19/01/09, 22:37

minguinhirigue wrote: I handled botryococcus braunii and spirulina, I'm not particularly talented, but it's possible to grow at home ..


Microalgae grow alone in a jar of goldfish ... They make green the water of the jar;)

But to make a profitable oil production, there is a chasm!
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by minguinhirigue » 20/01/09, 02:05

I am only a modest amateur, but following the advice of my favorite anarchitect (botanist at these times ...) I think I can spend like him from 1 cm3 to a few liters in two weeks ... The cultivate in basins becomes then possible.

The botanist anarchitect at these hours continues his experiments ... I would like to see next time a pool of 400 liters of botryococcus next to that of spirulina! Yes spirulina has been growing for years, and the 400 liters of spirulina were rather in shape ...

Good him it is not profitable, it looks more like a bear who would have fun to train bees to have a little more honey ... But an amateur can produce in the summer more than 20 kg of spirulina without spending there hours, with a little guts and good will, pro could do much better, right?

After the profitability of business model may force them to wait for the great shortage of the black gold ... but knowing that the cultivation of certain biofuel-oriented terrestrial plants is already profitable in some places *, I think that a production of biofuels with a better yield and a possible installation on non-arable land (and yes, bio-reactors are expensive, but they do not compete with food) is an even more profitable and supportive alternative ... Let's wait a little bit more of feedback from various groups working on the subject.

* In developing countries where often, we will gain to do only food production ... sic ...
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by Elec » 20/01/09, 02:17

The production of spirulina is perfectly profitable because we have a food product with high added value. It is sold in 160 euros per kilogram ... on sale;)
http://www.leguide.net/go/search/idx/50 ... ine/go.htm

Analyzes - For 100 g:

Energy value: 1630 kJ
Proteins: 65 g
Carbohydrates: 12 g
Lipids: 6 g

Vitamins
Beta-carotene: 104 mg / AJR *: -
Vitamin B1: 3.7 mg / AJR *: 264%
Vitamin B2: 3.2 mg / AJR *: 200%
Vitamin B3: 14.7 mg / AJR *: 82%
Vitamin B6: 0.8 mg / AJR *: 40%
Vitamin E: 10 mg / AJR *: 100%

minerals
Magnesium: 391 mg / AJR *: 130%
Phosphorus: 1168 mg / AJR *: 146%
Sodium: 638 mg / AJR *: -
Calcium: 616 mg / AJR *: 77%
Iron: 79 mg / AJR *: 564%

http://www.blog-vesinet.fr/images/spiruline.JPG

But, as the report points out Agrofuels and Environment just released in December 2008, oil production by microalgae will never be competitive with electrical solutions. For simple physical reasons.

The only relevant application, in my opinion, is long-haul aircraft.

but knowing that the cultivation of some biofuel-oriented terrestrial plants is already profitable in some places * (...)
* In developing countries where often, we will gain to do only food production ... sic ...


Yes, places, like in Brazil or Indonesia, where we exploit the workforce, where we expropriate the small landowners, where we cut the forest at high speed V (biodiversity), and where the rivers are polluted with fertilizers and pesticides.

To read on this subject the report of Friends of the Earth, September 2008:

Biofuels- Fuelling destruction in Latin America
http://www.foei.org/en/publications/pdf ... erica/view
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by Leo Maximus » 20/01/09, 10:02

minguinhirigue wrote:For hydrogen, Maximus, I think we have to wait to see if we produce enough in co-production energy:
- solar very high temperature?
- hypothetical nuclear fusion?

Before convincing results in these fields, to dwell on hydrogen is to waste energy by converting it into a falsely awesome vector ...

"- very high temperature solar? - hypothetical nuclear fusion?" This is to be added to the Syrota report and then to be archived in the 5th basement :D .

First from natural gas flared by lack of use and methane.

How much gas is flared in the world?
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by Remundo » 20/01/09, 10:15

That's the waste.

that is in hundredths of a million m3 (under normal conditions of temperature and pressure)

http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Torchage_e ... az_naturel

It's a shame.
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