New Holland unveils its hydrogen NH2 tractor

crude vegetable oil, diester, bio-ethanol or other biofuels, or fuel of vegetable origin ...
dirk pitt
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by dirk pitt » 02/03/09, 14:24

loop wrote:Regarding the use of the hydrogen fuel cell + electric motors, the performance of the assembly is clearly more favorable than a heat engine.


Oula, I missed a step or what, if we compare to the heat engine, implicitly, that means that we are also talking about petroleum base (nat gas) for the production of H2 (reforming) and there, I don't think whether in favor of H2 ....
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by Remundo » 02/03/09, 18:33

900 m² of PV, it's expensive for the tractor (around 630 Euros) ...

In addition, this tractor is not very powerful (106 HP, it's a bit tight now ...). Autonomy may be reduced (plowing in particular)

I agree with Christophe: better to use biofuel if you want to play the eco card.
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by Christophe » 02/03/09, 19:42

Remundo wrote:I agree with Christophe: better to use biofuel if you want to play the eco card.


Yeah but it's less Albator in the salons !! : Cheesy:

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by Capt_Maloche » 02/03/09, 19:43

Yep, it's expensive the tractor

+1 for vegetable oil
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by Christophe » 02/03/09, 19:54

Well yeah Maloche but vegetable oil is a lot, a lot, a lot less ... politically correct and classy at trade fairs or in BE ...
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by loop » 02/03/09, 20:56

Reply to Dirk

Oula, I missed a step or what, if we compare to the heat engine, implicitly, that means that we are also talking about petroleum base (nat gas) for the production of H2 (reforming) and there, I don't think whether in favor of H2 ....


Basically I say that for a given quantity of hydrogen, a fuel cell electric vehicle will go further than the vehicle equipped with a hydrogen thermal engine.
On the production of bottled H2, we agree that we are clearly moving away from the objective.
This is why I added this comment:


On the production of hydrogen, there's no photo, the overall balance is not terrible unless the origin of the energy required is of the renewable type with storage


A heat engine will a priori always be polluting with a poor efficiency.

Wouldn't the solution be the fuel cell operating on a renewable liquid fuel that is non-polluting and not competitive with food? Manufacture from plants or its waste and processes using solar energy, wind power etc.
Chemists at work, it will change you from carcinogens. : Mrgreen:

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by Capt_Maloche » 02/03/09, 21:36

Yep, but when you think about it, plants are the best way to store solar 8)

and moreover, for vegetable oil, the renewable period is one year against 15 or 20 for wood
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by Christophe » 02/03/09, 22:06

Capt_Maloche wrote:Yep, but when you think about it, plants are the best way to store solar 8)


Store yes but convert no ...

In the best case, the yield (micro algae) is the 1% solar conversion ... PV is therefore "largely" more efficient in direct conversion ... but there is no sun all the time.

Examples:

- 1 ha of sunflower gives about 800L of fuel per year = 8 kWh / year
- 1 ha = 100 * 100 m = 10 m²
- Productivity = 8 / 000 = 10 kWh / m².year!

However in the worst case, each m² of surface in France receives 1200 kWh per year ...The real yield of the sunflower energy is therefore less than 0.8 / 1200 = 0,07% because 1 ha in the North will probably never give 800L ...

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https://www.econologie.com/les-biocarbur ... -3566.html

Microalgae, by retaining 80L / ha.year, can therefore produce 000 times more per ha than sunflower ...

We would therefore have a "gross" solar yield -> liquid fuel at best: about 7%! And this would be the top of the top of biomass while waiting ... for the progress of genetics?

This of course without correcting this performance by the embodied energy or the cost of "refining or extraction" ...
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by Christophe » 02/03/09, 22:15

By refining this reasoning a little, by taking the best figures on solar radiation:

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a) Maximum solar radiation. : take 8 kWh / m².day = 2920 kWh / m².year
b) Productivity of oilseed algae: 80L / ha.year = 000 kWh / ha.year = 800 kWh / m².year

"Gross" yield of microalgae = 80/2920 = 2,7% ...

In short if we exceed 5% (by boosting the biochemistry of algae) we will be very happy!

This to speak only in terms of pure yield! The important thing is, obviously, the profitability of a project before its pure yield and I prefer to use algae with 5% yield whose plant is profitable in 2 years rather than solar panels with 15% yield including l plant will never be profitable ...
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by Remundo » 03/03/09, 08:28

In my opinion, making a few hectares of sunflower costs less than 900 m² of PV. : Idea:

For microalgae, can we grow them out of the sea, in pools fed with biomass?
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