one electrode made of oxygen, the other made of hydrogen: it is absolutely necessary to avoid mixing otherwise no cost-effective separation method exists
the diaphragm can be canvas or geotextile
if your bazaar is under pressure these gases will dissolve in the electrolyte, if the pressure drops they will dissolve anywhere or therefore oxygen in the hydrogen compartment too
and in the event of an explosion, the power is proportional to the initial pressure
at atmospheric pressure it is already quite difficult but possible to do something resistant to an internal explosion: at 200 bar it is impossible: catastrophe insured
I happen for electroplating operations to release oxygen and mixed hydrogen: I may have asked the question everywhere: never any way to separate them ...
you must ventilate strongly to dilute them in the air and avoid the danger!
I tried to make them suck by a generator: if there is a good electronic regulation of the carburation, the small quantity of hydrogen saves a small quantity of gasoline, but there are electronic carburation with probe lambda only on cars ... there are only at home bizarre generator that can use this ...
Hydrogen engine
- chatelot16
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chatelot16 wrote:I happen for electroplating operations to release oxygen and mixed hydrogen: I may have asked the question everywhere: never any way to separate them
You have omega3 left!
Oops sorry, it escaped me ;-)
We would have to find something that oxidizes faster than hydrogen. Are all canned foods well protected from oxidation with citric acid? My chemistry is a bit far ...
0 x
See you soon !
bernardd wrote:jeremie73 wrote:
"Due to the increase in pressure and temperature, the activity of oxygen as a corrosion agent is markedly enhanced."
Is that what you're talking about?
For example ... At high pressure, lots of things happen that we don't know ...
In oxygen diving, any grease in the circuits (seals, ...) is PROHIBITED otherwise immediate ignition ...
Any electric actuator in such an environment implies explosion-proof ...
Then a grease-free and explosion-proof compressor ...
Otherwise I also fear that what you said Chatelot16 is true ...
You seem to be doing well in mechanics, but there you are tackling very big because there is much more than mechanics, and it's really dangerous.
Don't you want to watch the steam, for example? that would make you a good introduction to the tough pressures, and it would be very useful to move towards concentrated wood and solar cogeneration ... :-) And it's already dangerous enough to deserve sustained attention.
Mmmmh ...
It is true that it is not easy and chemistry question I do not master everything ...
But I don't like to stop like that, so I'm going to find a solution to separate the gases without a solenoid valve (let's remain optimistic )
And I'm also going to watch the steam! I will try to make half and half
chatelot16 wrote:one electrode made of oxygen, the other made of hydrogen: it is absolutely necessary to avoid mixing otherwise no cost-effective separation method exists
the diaphragm can be canvas or geotextile
if your bazaar is under pressure these gases will dissolve in the electrolyte, if the pressure drops they will dissolve anywhere or therefore oxygen in the hydrogen compartment too
and in the event of an explosion, the power is proportional to the initial pressure
at atmospheric pressure it is already quite difficult but possible to do something resistant to an internal explosion: at 200 bar it is impossible: catastrophe insured
I happen for electroplating operations to release oxygen and mixed hydrogen: I may have asked the question everywhere: never any way to separate them ...
you must ventilate strongly to dilute them in the air and avoid the danger!
I tried to make them suck by a generator: if there is a good electronic regulation of the carburation, the small quantity of hydrogen saves a small quantity of gasoline, but there are electronic carburation with probe lambda only on cars ... there are only at home bizarre generator that can use this ...
So to separate them you have to use a canvas between the electrodes and there must not be any pressure, its damn all my ideas in the air
Another question, if for example there is 100% hydrogen in a cylinder and there is a spark it will not burn?
bernardd wrote:chatelot16 wrote:I happen for electroplating operations to release oxygen and mixed hydrogen: I may have asked the question everywhere: never any way to separate them
You have omega3 left!
0 x
- chatelot16
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bernardd wrote:chatelot16 wrote:I happen for electroplating operations to release oxygen and mixed hydrogen: I may have asked the question everywhere: never any way to separate them
You have omega3 left!
Oops sorry, it escaped me ;-)
We would have to find something that oxidizes faster than hydrogen. Are all canned foods well protected from oxidation with citric acid? My chemistry is a bit far ...
I was looking for a cost-effective way to exploit mixed hydrogen
if it is necessary to use more expensive chemical reagents: profit = loss
hydrogen only has an energy value that is perfectly pure: otherwise it's a mess to ventilate as far as possible
0 x
- chatelot16
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jeremie73 wrote:Another question, if for example there is 100% hydrogen in a cylinder and there is a spark it will not burn?
luckily!
pure hydrogen is compressed in a bottle and sold in complete safety
but pure! not approximately pure
hydrogen and acetylene are the gases which succeed in being explosive with the lowest quantity of oxygen: therefore before compressing it is necessary to be really on purity, otherwise even without spark the diesel effect of the compression can enough ... boom ...
0 x
Hello
No one is talking about making H2 from gasification from biomass.
In my idea, the individual vehicle is prohibited. We therefore speak of a cogeneration facility.
A well-conducted gasification gives a yield of around 70%.
The gases are:
CO, H2, CH4 for CO2 fuels, N2, O2 for inert materials, tars, soot and NOx for waste.
The reaction is endothermic and consumes part of the biomass, but reusable in the MCI. A fraction is also lost during the oxidation phase.
In cogeneration, we can recover a part of this energy, making it possible to announce a gasification yield of more than 90%, which becomes downright acceptable.
Obviously, we recover the calories from the radiator and the exhaust gases from the MCI. overall efficiency, from 80 to 95%, like any cogé installation!
Amortization time, 5 years !!! (study carried out during my DUT)
The steam engine is good, but it will be difficult to achieve these results, with the added bonus of safety.
The fuel cell is to be thrown in the trash. Same for the production of H2 by electrolysis. The use of H2 in a MCI alone is an aberation, because we can feed with other cracking products very well.
We must forget about electrolysis. Because whether it is nuclear or sustainable electricity, it is waste energy!
No one is talking about making H2 from gasification from biomass.
In my idea, the individual vehicle is prohibited. We therefore speak of a cogeneration facility.
A well-conducted gasification gives a yield of around 70%.
The gases are:
CO, H2, CH4 for CO2 fuels, N2, O2 for inert materials, tars, soot and NOx for waste.
The reaction is endothermic and consumes part of the biomass, but reusable in the MCI. A fraction is also lost during the oxidation phase.
In cogeneration, we can recover a part of this energy, making it possible to announce a gasification yield of more than 90%, which becomes downright acceptable.
Obviously, we recover the calories from the radiator and the exhaust gases from the MCI. overall efficiency, from 80 to 95%, like any cogé installation!
Amortization time, 5 years !!! (study carried out during my DUT)
The steam engine is good, but it will be difficult to achieve these results, with the added bonus of safety.
The fuel cell is to be thrown in the trash. Same for the production of H2 by electrolysis. The use of H2 in a MCI alone is an aberation, because we can feed with other cracking products very well.
We must forget about electrolysis. Because whether it is nuclear or sustainable electricity, it is waste energy!
0 x
Hello,
And no one is talking about the production of H2 by thermal cracking from concentrated solar ...
Is that 20% wasted compared to recent wood boilers with 90% efficiency approximately? They all operate in double combustion, degassing and combustion of gases ...
We must not focus on water vapor, we must find the ideal fluid in a thermal compression / decompression cycle in a piston engine. And we know how to do these cycles very efficiently today, in heat pumps: we only change the type of compression, to go from mechanical compression to thermal compression.
Water vapor is interesting for its "high" vaporization temperature and its energy density.
For the safety aspect, we now know how to more easily manage pressures from 100 to 300 bars with more homogeneous materials and non-destructive testing for the search for structural defects.
Ptilu wrote:No one is talking about making H2 from gasification from biomass.
And no one is talking about the production of H2 by thermal cracking from concentrated solar ...
Ptilu wrote:A well-conducted gasification gives a yield of around 70%.
Is that 20% wasted compared to recent wood boilers with 90% efficiency approximately? They all operate in double combustion, degassing and combustion of gases ...
Ptilu wrote:The steam engine is good, but it will be difficult to achieve these results, with the added bonus of safety.
We must not focus on water vapor, we must find the ideal fluid in a thermal compression / decompression cycle in a piston engine. And we know how to do these cycles very efficiently today, in heat pumps: we only change the type of compression, to go from mechanical compression to thermal compression.
Water vapor is interesting for its "high" vaporization temperature and its energy density.
For the safety aspect, we now know how to more easily manage pressures from 100 to 300 bars with more homogeneous materials and non-destructive testing for the search for structural defects.
0 x
See you soon !
Hello
The cracking of carbonaceous fuel by solar is not too bad, but it must be expensive, right? a gas, it's just a badly oxygenated tank, so ... In addition if I get it right it is especially pyrolysis. Are we really interested in this reaction when we make h2?
[quote = "bernardd"]
Is that 20% wasted compared to recent wood boilers with 90% efficiency approximately? They all operate in double combustion, degassing and combustion of gases ...
Yes, but what is going on in your double combustion boiler?
The first combustion is used to feed a reduction, or is made from syngas ... In other words a gasifier;)
The second burns the syngas, I think the big advantage of this process is the depollution ... And good fuel flexibility.
When I announce 70%, I do not take into account the recovery of thermal energy, but just a transformation yield:
yield = PCI output / PCI input = PCI syngas / PCI wood
Obviously we recover these calories on a cogé installation! Some advertise 95% of return of the blow !!!
And in addition we make electricity!
The cracking of carbonaceous fuel by solar is not too bad, but it must be expensive, right? a gas, it's just a badly oxygenated tank, so ... In addition if I get it right it is especially pyrolysis. Are we really interested in this reaction when we make h2?
[quote = "bernardd"]
Is that 20% wasted compared to recent wood boilers with 90% efficiency approximately? They all operate in double combustion, degassing and combustion of gases ...
Yes, but what is going on in your double combustion boiler?
The first combustion is used to feed a reduction, or is made from syngas ... In other words a gasifier;)
The second burns the syngas, I think the big advantage of this process is the depollution ... And good fuel flexibility.
When I announce 70%, I do not take into account the recovery of thermal energy, but just a transformation yield:
yield = PCI output / PCI input = PCI syngas / PCI wood
Obviously we recover these calories on a cogé installation! Some advertise 95% of return of the blow !!!
And in addition we make electricity!
0 x
Ptilu wrote:Hello
No one is talking about making H2 from gasification from biomass.
Personally I do not know too much, but nothing prevents you from opening a new subject and talking about it!
Ptilu wrote:A well-conducted gasification gives a yield of around 70%.
Just like a well-built electrolyser.
Ptilu wrote:We must forget about electrolysis. Because whether it is nuclear or sustainable electricity, it is waste energy!
Sorry I must be boring ... But I am not trying to do something with a 100% return. I just want to do something that would save me gas and therefore money, and not pollute too much.
Good then to return to electrolysis, it would be necessary to compress the hydrogen without compressing the oxygen by separating them from the start. For that you need a compressor or a booster. My father has an air compressor in his workshop so if I get an air booster I could put it between the electrolyser and the hydrogen cylinder. That way I would separate the two gases and compress that hydrogen.
Isn't that possible? (There will probably be something else wrong )
0 x
- chatelot16
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an air compressor takes no precaution to avoid leaks: the air is neither dangerous nor expensive
there may be 2% of the sucked air which passes through the segment leaks and comes out through the casing, next to an explosion-proof electric motor
I dare not imagine an air compressor with hydrogen ... boom
then you have already noticed that at 200bar we don't put a lot of gas in a bottle: at 10 bar of an ordinary air compressor we put little jets
before compressing it is necessary to solve the problem of oxygen detection: the separation of gases between the electrodes is not obvious: at the slightest accidental mixture, the compressed bottle will be a bomb
I am looking for a good means of automatic detection to stop the compressor at the slightest lack of gas purity: no need to go any further as long as this problem is not resolved
for a very low flow rate, I have a membrane and water compressor manufacturing chatelot: a water pump like a karcher pushes a rubber membrane and compresses the gas on the other side: it must be very slow to avoid overheating : it takes 10 hours to fill a bottle at 200bar
a refrigerator compressor easily mounts to 15 bar and is perfectly waterproof
there may be 2% of the sucked air which passes through the segment leaks and comes out through the casing, next to an explosion-proof electric motor
I dare not imagine an air compressor with hydrogen ... boom
then you have already noticed that at 200bar we don't put a lot of gas in a bottle: at 10 bar of an ordinary air compressor we put little jets
before compressing it is necessary to solve the problem of oxygen detection: the separation of gases between the electrodes is not obvious: at the slightest accidental mixture, the compressed bottle will be a bomb
I am looking for a good means of automatic detection to stop the compressor at the slightest lack of gas purity: no need to go any further as long as this problem is not resolved
for a very low flow rate, I have a membrane and water compressor manufacturing chatelot: a water pump like a karcher pushes a rubber membrane and compresses the gas on the other side: it must be very slow to avoid overheating : it takes 10 hours to fill a bottle at 200bar
a refrigerator compressor easily mounts to 15 bar and is perfectly waterproof
0 x
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