The lazy garden made in northern Elsass

Agriculture and soil. Pollution control, soil remediation, humus and new agricultural techniques.
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Re: The lazy garden made in northern Elsass




by torrent sites » 10/12/17, 17:31

not even, although i am able to spout a torrent of co ... ie quite impressive.
it really dates this nickname and it is more compared to the net and certain practices ... how to say ... not very recommended : Mrgreen:
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Re: The lazy garden made in northern Elsass




by Did67 » 10/12/17, 18:22

Hopla Fischer!

So welcome.

With very interesting "experiments", which I am far from having all done! But with results which largely agree with my convictions ... In general, they are explained very well when we start not from false "good ideas", but when we look at the mechanisms at work in a living soil.

Your clarification on laziness matches that of a few others - it is true that when I "invented" the concept, I had three rollers "dumped" over the fence by a farmer. And I continue. I compare this to the "inputs" that you acquire in other forms. I am not aiming for autonomy per se. And I restricted myself to "working less to collect more" ...

The fact that you are on heavy ground is something that interests me a lot, not having this luck / constraint. I am therefore very curious to observe the aggregation in "real situation" in such a soil!

PS: I dispense with commenting or "explaining" what you say point by point; I would be 4 times longer than you! I let you discover the "general" thread here (850 pages including a lot of explanations).

PS2: I was "intellectually" convinced of the effectiveness of my "anti-mildew tomato tunnel", which makes sense if you think about the biological cycle of this parasite. But the year 2017 was quite easy on this ground, there was still a doubt. Your "- The tomato shelter: essential for me. In the seven years since I made one, I have had no mildew attacks 8) so I keep doing one every year. strengthens my belief.
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Re: The lazy garden made in northern Elsass




by torrent sites » 10/12/17, 18:54

I knew that certain things would certainly not work on my premises (I do not have too much knowledge in life of the ground), but to be sure and being autodidact in a lot of field, I try. Who knows with any luck I might be pleasantly surprised.

For the hay and for that matter all the inputs, I voluntarily chose to complicate my life: I could also ask local workers for the hay, but I found it a pity the "mess" that was made in the fields and in the surrounding gardens (and after that I flog myself with freshly cut nettles : Lol: ).
The ancients used to say that the garden is a mistress that wants to be visited every day: I find this sentence to be just as true in permaculture, although the visit does not have the same content as in traditional ones. What I would like to avoid is that people fall on a discussion thread and say to themselves "it's super easy, there is nothing to do, we do it quickly and zu in the pool". They would go from disappointment to disappointment and stop quickly.

For heavy soil I can start to give you the evolutions (which are also those expected with this type of process):
I have a layer of clay soil of about 20-30cm and then I'm on yellow-orange clay. I have the impression that the "good" soil took a few cm (but I did not do a precise test so to take conditional).
the population in earthworms is impressive for my taste, with beautiful specimens very large and long.
the woodlice and other bugs have "invaded" the ground, whereas before I had none or little. So the level of life of the ground I think it's starting to be quite good.
the mycorrhizae (I call it that but not sure if it is that -> white filament), are also numerous on the surface of the soil.
the earth remains heavy earth, on the other hand after the passages of the grelinette, I use a 4 teeth hook (of this model http://www.plantes-et-jardins.com/p/441 ... gIWA_D_BwE) to loosen the soil and carry out my sowing (radish, salad, carrots). it was something totally impossible 10 years ago still (it's been a year since I can realize it)

For the thread you quote, it looks interesting, but for the moment I haven't bothered to read the 850 pages : Shock: .
I almost watched all of your videos, especially the one where you say that you had composted your tomatoes with mildew on site the year before. I have been doing this for several years, even when I had mildew attacks and this is not a problem for me. At the same time when we study this mushroom a little, it seems logical

ps: i just saw your ps2 .. great minds meet : Lol:
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Re: The lazy garden made in northern Elsass




by olivier75 » 10/12/17, 20:15

torrent,

Me it is rather the orchards and the gardens not or not too well maintained, or abandoned, (the farmers collect too well), and directly to the mower. I am not often on the spot and not long, and wish (to) show that it is possible to take care of a vegetable garden and to go on vacation. Indeed it is still work, also knowledge and cooking time.

Olivier.
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Re: The lazy garden made in northern Elsass




by torrent sites » 10/12/17, 20:32

it's funny like from one region to another it changes: you it's not too well-kept gardens and orchards and clean fields and me the opposite. the orchards at home are almost all golf green (I admit I exaggerate).
For the agris, it is not their fault but as the old plots all made a small channel, it is not manageable with their machines and that is good for me.

it is sure that going on vacation for a week in the heat wave does not really worry me
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Re: The lazy garden made in northern Elsass




by Did67 » 10/12/17, 21:25

torrent wrote:
For hay and for that matter all the inputs, I voluntarily chose to complicate my life



It is very good and very honorable to "glean" hay, but what I meant: you don't have to. Someone who has a hobby horse will "consume" about twenty or thirty rolls a year ... So I feel very comfortable when I buy some, have them delivered and use 5 to produce a good one. part of our usual vegetables.

Of course, we will not be able to do without all the work ... But all the same, reduced, I "cultivate" about 500 m², "hanging out", doing lots of other things - and apart from a few periods of fluff (display hay: the equivalent of two half-days unrolling the rolls; preparing the plants - a few half-days and above all monitoring the frames, opening, closing, covering with insulation; cutting the furrows and sowing), the main thing is to watch the voles traps and to harvest (I spend twice a day in my vegetable garden, when I am there).

I do not entirely agree with the assessment that it remains a job!

Of course, if you do the stupidity of doing Hugelkultur (permaculture on mounds with buried wood) ... But quite frankly, by thinking in your deckchair, you quickly come to the conclusion that it is, as you do. have noticed, without interest. I hope that my book will give sufficient foundations to prevent people from discovering it at their expense. Worse, stay "stuck" on this nonsense!

Certainly, if you prefer (and again, I do not criticize it, but it does not seem essential to me from an ethical point of view) glean the hay ... Or those who do it without being equipped ...
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Re: The lazy garden made in northern Elsass




by torrent sites » 10/12/17, 22:38

For hugelkultur and elsewhere for the rest too, I wanted to try to be able to say that at home it did not work. I do not have too much knowledge in the field of soil functioning and therefore I prefer to test and assess the results (good or less good) by myself (it is by forging that one becomes a blacksmith : Lol: ).
In terms of time this method is still anecdotal because it took me a long day to set up (I have a good shovel : Mrgreen: ).

About myself, you should know that I am a bit like an animal that hibernates: in winter I do various small jobs indoors at home, but from the first rays of sun I have to be active outdoors. It is something that I love and that is "vital" to me. So I complicate my life but get a satisfaction that balances the negative sides.
Regarding the equipment, I can easily get what I need for haymaking (I only need the press that we sold a year ago), but as said before I prefer other techniques.

I did not criticize the people who buy hay rolls at all, because when I see how many end up withering away in the fields in my area, the "waste" (from what I have been explained would be linked to stories of quotas or other) is surely not to end up in mulching. At the same time, I "render service" to certain people by collecting their dead leaves, etc., it saves them a trip to the recycling center, which by our place, on Saturdays, is very crowded.

The notion of "job" is specific to everyone and therefore very subjective: what I consider to be work, may be only a little activity for one, like an impassable mountain for others. Unfortunately I saw a few people (I admit there are not hundreds of them) in my entourage to have believed that it was simple and to realize that ultimately it required a minimum of "attendance" and quite simply to give up . The reasons were always the same: it's too much work, it looked a lot easier.
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Re: The lazy garden made in northern Elsass




by Did67 » 11/12/17, 08:14

You just have to be careful what you convey as a message!

The hugelkultur, for example, you should know that Sepp Holzer did this with big excavators (not mini excavators!). You just have to imagine what it would mean to "prepare" my 4 or 500 m²!

Or that some "popes" of this technique are very happy to have interns to increase their surfaces! Paying slaves, in the 21st century, is still a luxury!

After that, that we do it so as not to have to pay a subscription to a gym does not pose any problem to me. Just say it!

Because I can tell you that one day, after a visit to my house, a "young retiree" came to see me as an aside, while we were sharing a drink with the group, to thank me warmly: his wife had "seen" permaculture on mounds and absolutely wanted him to mound their garden ... I can tell you that he was relieved when I managed to convince his wife that it was no only unnecessary, but rather harmful.

Afterwards, in fact, each one has his own experiences. With all the same a small snag: the famous "it works"! Nature is so resilient (it takes shocks, corrects when mistreated). So even stupid things "work". Conventional agriculture arches, if we only look at the tonnes of biomass that farmers take out of the fields ... We know that the problem lies elsewhere. In the impact on the ecosystem. In the residues and their very long-term effects on health, in the dependence on non-renewable "inputs" (petroleum) ... So without thinking a minimum, we arrive at false conclusions.

Lasagna works. In any case "quite well" ... It remains nevertheless an ecological disaster!
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Re: The lazy garden made in northern Elsass




by Did67 » 11/12/17, 08:21

torrent wrote:The notion of "job" is specific to everyone and therefore very subjective: what I consider to be work, may be only a little activity for one, like an impassable mountain for others. Unfortunately I saw a few people (I admit there are not hundreds of them) in my entourage to have believed that it was simple and to realize that ultimately it required a minimum of "attendance" and quite simply to give up . The reasons were always the same: it's too much work, it looked a lot easier.


The "amount of effort" can be quantified. You just have to want it. On the one hand, in terms of the hours of presence required. On the other hand, in terms of "hardness" of this effort (in kcal or in kWh developed, if you want). We could quantify it, if we want. Although I regret not doing it enough. Not to note especially ...

I spend a lot of time in my garden. But often, in general even, I daydream!

Can you clarify what those who were disappointed were doing? No phenoculture as I recommend it, I think! If you make lasagna, if you make mounds, if you think you have to make "borders" or "squares" or "insect hotels", yes, there is a way to go wrong ...

In phenoculture, if we buy hay, the ratio of biomass obtained / effort (in kcal) is reasonable. Even if "lazy" is misleading. I specify it in my confs - this mainly concerns the absence of any form of tillage. Of course, you have to sow, plant, harvest. We must watch out for the traps. Put nets against birds. Sometimes you have to fight slugs. You have to prune and tie the tomatoes (although under roof, that remains to be checked - I am doing it for now) ...

[Of course, we are discussing. This is my opinion. And those who have been following me for a long time know that I like to chat. But don't let contrary opinions shock me!]
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Re: The lazy garden made in northern Elsass




by Christophe » 11/12/17, 12:39

torrent wrote:
The webmunster welcomes you here! : Mrgreen:

: Lol: thanks to you



Try to attach some photos (attachments function below), this greatly increases the interest of readers when there are illustrations ...
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