Le Potager du Sloth: Gardening without fatigue more than Bio

Agriculture and soil. Pollution control, soil remediation, humus and new agricultural techniques.
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Re: The Kitchen Garden Sloth: Gardening without fatigue more than Bio




by Did67 » 15/07/18, 11:42

Moindreffor wrote:
Moindreffor wrote:question
I want to make my soil myself, because very disappointed with the one sold in gardening this year
I plan to combine semi soil, coffee grounds and mowing of dried grass
a growing medium, a slow release nitrogen source (the marc) and a quick release (turf) if I'm not mistaken : Mrgreen:
I would like to put these ingredients 3 in a tray to mix well, but in dry form, to be able to make mass measurements, to achieve different mixtures
the idea is to wet the mixes some time before use, the questions are as follows
If I humidify very early, will I not "transform" the grass and grounds into nitrogen?
will the released nitrogen stay in the media or risk leaching when watering?
3 wetting weeks before use is enough or not?
Is it better to sow in a semi-classic soil and transplant into a richer soil afterwards?

just a little up as the Bordeaux mixture at the coast right now, I will not want to get into a useless job : Mrgreen:


1) You do well to raise - I wanted to answer.

2) I do not have the overall answer, but some clarification on one or the other point.

3) Coffee grounds are, in my opinion, too "slow" material for last minute decomposition!

4) Beware like the plague of the cold phase, based on mushrooms, of a decomposition process (comparable to a copostage not heap): it then possibly forms natural "anti-germinatives". Fresh compost (or composting station compost that is too fresh) is formally not recommended for "seed compost", for this reason.

I will exclude, for this reason, any late composting! Now you have to make a big pile, let it decompose, ensure the aerobic path (one or two turns). Then store during the winter.

And indeed, fight against the leaching of nitrates but also potassium avoiding percolation - so put a roof, baking during rainy kids, put in bags in the fall ...

I have to tackle it too !!!!
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Re: The Kitchen Garden Sloth: Gardening without fatigue more than Bio




by izentrop » 15/07/18, 13:08

izentrop wrote:
Did67 wrote:And indeed, fight against the leaching of nitrates but also potassium avoiding percolation - so put a roof, baking during rainy kids, put in bags in the fall ...
You can also have a slab underneath or a bottom of tank with valve for recovery of leachates, that can be used directly or put back on the job. The problem is that for decomposition to be optimal, it must be wet like a sponge soaked in water.
Mine is under the trees, it is rarely the rain and although I water it from time to time and cover it with a carpet not waterproof, it is never wet enough. I'm going to think about a bucket or 1000 tank bottom, it's easier than making a concrete slab.

In some areas composting on slab is mandatory for composting dry toilets at least https://www.rae-intestinale.fr/app/down ... 1528756044

This Chilean explains how he makes his "bokashi" which looks more like a classic composting with the three rules: air, water and C / N.
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Re: The Kitchen Garden Sloth: Gardening without fatigue more than Bio




by Moindreffor » 15/07/18, 13:47

Did67 wrote:
Julienmos wrote:question to Did: I understood that there would be a new video, long version of the previous one ... but we do not see anything coming?


You understood very well !!! I'm the one picking it up ... I might have to refrain from making promises that I can't keep! [At the same time, it helps me a bit - I know I "should ..."]

[Maybe I should take an intern from film school, charge him € 2 and tear him down to edit my "rushes" - they're usually shot, I'm just missing a sequence of "bond"; I have also "in a club" the visit by a German group, still not mounted and another theme - I do not even remember what it was! ...]

if your trainee appears on the video, even choose, takes a nice trainee, it will go up .... : Oops: your number of subscribers of course : Evil:
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Re: The Kitchen Garden Sloth: Gardening without fatigue more than Bio




by Moindreffor » 15/07/18, 13:52

Did67 wrote:
Moindreffor wrote:
Moindreffor wrote:question
I want to make my soil myself, because very disappointed with the one sold in gardening this year
I plan to combine semi soil, coffee grounds and mowing of dried grass
a growing medium, a slow release nitrogen source (the marc) and a quick release (turf) if I'm not mistaken : Mrgreen:
I would like to put these ingredients 3 in a tray to mix well, but in dry form, to be able to make mass measurements, to achieve different mixtures
the idea is to wet the mixes some time before use, the questions are as follows
If I humidify very early, will I not "transform" the grass and grounds into nitrogen?
will the released nitrogen stay in the media or risk leaching when watering?
3 wetting weeks before use is enough or not?
Is it better to sow in a semi-classic soil and transplant into a richer soil afterwards?

just a little up as the Bordeaux mixture at the coast right now, I will not want to get into a useless job : Mrgreen:


1) You do well to raise - I wanted to answer.

2) I do not have the overall answer, but some clarification on one or the other point.

3) Coffee grounds are, in my opinion, too "slow" material for last minute decomposition!

4) Beware like the plague of the cold phase, based on mushrooms, of a decomposition process (comparable to a copostage not heap): it then possibly forms natural "anti-germinatives". Fresh compost (or composting station compost that is too fresh) is formally not recommended for "seed compost", for this reason.

I will exclude, for this reason, any late composting! Now you have to make a big pile, let it decompose, ensure the aerobic path (one or two turns). Then store during the winter.

And indeed, fight against the leaching of nitrates but also potassium avoiding percolation - so put a roof, baking during rainy kids, put in bags in the fall ...

I have to tackle it too !!!!

Thank you for the details
So I'm going to put the pomace, semi potting soil, a little garden soil and water and mix in a vat and in the spring 3 weeks before transplanting, I will put the mowing of dried grass,
I will plant my seedlings and plant in this soil
and I will transplant in the potting soil of the trade to see the difference
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Re: The Kitchen Garden Sloth: Gardening without fatigue more than Bio




by Did67 » 15/07/18, 14:30

izentrop wrote:You can also have a slab underneath or a bottom of tank with valve for recovery of leachates, that can be used directly or put back on the job. The problem is that for decomposition to be optimal, it must be wet like a sponge soaked in water.


Yes, we can indeed collect the water flows, with the elements that risk a) to pollute, b) to miss in the spring ...

Composting platforms normally have a slab, with central flow and collection ... then recycling (the hot phase is inevitably accompanied by water evaporation - it "smokes"!).

It is necessary to maintain a humidity, at the heart of the pile, comparable to a sponge "hurry"(There must be air, it must not be" saturated "). Many piles turn to" rot "because the heart is too wet. So risk of anaerobiosis, bad odors .. .

One can both have a too dry pile throughout the summer and subject to leaching during the winter period, during heavy rainfall. One is harmful to a biological activity, necessary. The other in terms of leaching of certain minerals (nitrates, potassium).
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Re: The Kitchen Garden Sloth: Gardening without fatigue more than Bio




by Did67 » 15/07/18, 15:46

izentrop wrote:
In some areas composting on slab is mandatory for composting dry toilets at least https://www.rae-intestinale.fr/app/down ... 1528756044



The brochure talks about "zones with health or environmental issues ": these are rather areas such as catchment areas (the Potager du Paresseux is on a plot included in a catchment area where spreading is prohibited ; in such a zone, it would be necessary a waterproof slab).

For my part, I wonder who respects such a complex "process" ???

I recommend going through the "species barrier": using the droppings, even vaguely or summarily or clumsily composted, to cultivate "green manures" that will be transferred to the crops. At the end of the day, the path of nutrients is the same: mineralize in the green manure plot, they are absorbed by it. Then transfer in the form of organic matter in the vegetable garden where the risk of contamination by germs of certain potential diseases (we think of E. coli, etc ... But I also think especially of intestinal nematodes, almost disappeared today, but that I knew when I was young, and who may come back ...).
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Re: The Kitchen Garden Sloth: Gardening without fatigue more than Bio




by izentrop » 15/07/18, 16:21

Did67 wrote:The brochure speaks of "areas with health or environmental issues": they are rather areas such as catchment areas (the Potager du Paresseux is on a plot included in a catchment perimeter where spreading is prohibited; in such an area , you need a waterproof slab).
For my part, I wonder who respects such a complex "process" ???
Does leachate not contain the simple elements that plants need? Some use it as a quick fertilizer and it's stupid that only the trees benefit. I have an 1000 vat I would change when I have a moment ... Just cut a lid and vents.

I'm also thinking about Perseus's problems with his verticillium.
Are not these fungal diseases maintained with surface compost?
When we see that to avoid this type of disease, we must avoid cultivating plants subject to the same place for at least 4 years and follow draconian measures, such as tearing some perennials and sanitizing, can some hay can not also be a vector of these diseases?
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Re: The Kitchen Garden Sloth: Gardening without fatigue more than Bio




by Did67 » 17/07/18, 09:58

There are several things:

- the risk that the leachate pollutes the water table; because what is necessary for the vegetable garden, especially nitrates, are a "pollutant" for drinking water; regulations aim to protect water tables

- it does not really help to have leachates under a pile of compost, where one does not cultivate - except, of course, to collect them by a slab / waterproof tarpaulin and to use them as "nutritive solution", with immediate action

- in fact, cold surface decomposition presents the risk of diseases being maintained in place; very exactly, their forms of resistance (spores, ...). It is therefore necessary to practice a rotation (even if for the tomatoes, for the moment, I do not do it - we will see how long it lasts!). That being said, I know of few domestic compost heaps which reach the entire mass of the hygienization temperatures [65 ° C - at this temperature there, one cannot leave the hand!]. So I think that the hygienization of organic matter by composting in domestic composters is a legend! Moreover, "organic" domestic gardeners have serious problems with diseases and often spend a lot of time ... treating!

Rather, I rely on the biological activity of the soil to clean it. It is proven that this activity, the richness in organic matter, the presence of the rhizosphere or the mycorrhizae “block” the development of diseases when inoculated [various tests].

Always the famous paradigm shift: either the man does (here, he sterilizes, he fertilizes, he treats ...) or the man supports the living system, feeds him, and he does in his place. ..

I took the second option radically. For now, it works.
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Re: The Kitchen Garden Sloth: Gardening without fatigue more than Bio




by Did67 » 17/07/18, 10:17

MSV Videos of the Sélosse Conference - a small additional opinion

I was at the end of the videos.

And my initial enthusiasm faded like leaves in the fall ...

I found that he laid the fundamentals: enthusiasm. No discussion. It's mastered.

And then he did not take off his posture of "lab" scientist, with his little frills, threading the pearls, such a curious botanical case then such a forest eccentricity: it always went in the same. But we don't need 6 hours to admit (or not) that mycorrhizae exist.

No one doubts that mycorrhizae exist and that they are effective.

And after that ???? Nothing. Redundancies. Improvements. Questions without answers. Broken promises (perhaps not filmed): "we have to talk about organic again" ... I didn't see anything. I doubt what he was going to say.

His schema on the fact that such plant can "lose" in mycorrhizal exchanges with such specific mushroom is interesting. And must urge us to be careful. A symbiosis is not necessarily beneficial to one of the parties. The other can take the chestnuts out of the fire. There are unbalanced marriages. But that doesn't mean anything in practice: Selossus himself indicates that plants collaborate with dozens, hundreds of species of fungi. Therefore, who says that the plant will, in the joyous mess of the living, engage with this mushroom there? Who says there won't be a divorce ??? What does this "forced marriage" tell us ??? No doubt that for this species of plants, it is not the right partner ...

[But actually, at the top, when I do not remember who mentioned it, I said "beside" !!! I did not know there was a specific mycorrhizal fungi and I am talking about "mycorrhizae" in general, in symbiosis with a plant in the happy living mess ... I cannot demonstrate it scientifically, but I have the intuition that the plant finds its way there - not necessarily in terms of "produced biomass", which was the only criterion retained; there are other aspects: phytosanitary protection, communications between subjects of the same species, or, in orchids, triggering of seed germination ... When evolution leads to a system where, according to human criteria, it is not reasonable, it is the criteria of the man which are not good. No one at Airbus would have invented a flying thing as crass as the drone! And it is this vibrating awkwardness that causes pollen to fall in some plants and fertilizes much better than bees - eg in tomatoes !!]

I was amazed that he could not indicate thresholds for phosphates. He seems to ignore or prefer to ignore (competition of researchers ??? snobbery of "pure" researchers against "field agronomists" ???) Fortin's work in practical conditions. Page 91 of their book (which suddenly I recommend, without advertising!) There is a table which gives for 9 market garden or agricultural species, the "mycorrhizal dependence of plants" = the part of P supplied to them by the mycorrhizae for a content of 100 ppm of P in the soil. We see that in wheat, at this content, it is "independent". But at 50 ppm, it receives 30% of its P from mycorrhizae. Leek, at 100 ppm P, receives 95,7% of mycorrhizae. At 50 ppm, it is 97%. But at 150 ppm, that dropped to 50. Several vegetables are in similar orders of magnitude: carrots, peas, beans, beans, sweet corn. Tomato and potato are less dependent [40 to 60% at 100 ppm; slightly more at 50 ppm - 60/65%] and become "independent" at 150 ppm [0% P of mycorrhizal origin].

The commentary says this was obtained "from a field experiment".

That was the answer to the young man who questioned him. And not "we don't know precisely"! And shut up. There is clearly, for vegetables, a threshold, between 100 and 150 ppm P in the soil, at which the benefit of mycorrhizae decreases or collapses. On this basis, I recommend not to fertilize, at the risk of making the plant "independent" - since it easily finds what it needs - mycorrhizal fungi. The mycorrhizal fungus then becomes a parasite, from the point of view of the vegetable - "which has everything it needs". Why would he feed him ??? Because this mushroom costs him (I did not note the figures of Selossus: up to 40% of the products of his photosynthesis; I often say 20/25% - I do not know if I am wrong). It is then the gardener who becomes dependent, because he took charge, at his expense, what the living system was doing [for the same reason, I advise against watering as long as the soil is stable and as long as the vegetables do not show obvious signs of wilting. And especially not at the plantation. But I do Neanderthal agronomy! No "research" publishable in "Nature" or "Science" - I'm talking about prestigious journals]

It is clear that an agronomist advances even on fragile knowledge. Or sometimes without, from what he imagines to understand of the living system! At risk of crashing. But if the Neanderthals had expected to understand everything before inventing a very very rough agriculture, we would not be here! I am a Neanderthal !!!


Of course, this is only an opinion. Mine.
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Re: The Kitchen Garden Sloth: Gardening without fatigue more than Bio




by Julienmos » 17/07/18, 11:41

Did67 wrote:- in fact, cold surface decomposition presents the risk of diseases being maintained in place; very exactly, their forms of resistance (spores, ...). It is therefore necessary to practice a rotation (even if for the tomatoes, for the moment, I do not do it - we will see how long it lasts!). That being said, I know of few domestic compost heaps which reach the entire mass of the hygienization temperatures [65 ° C - at this temperature there, one cannot leave the hand!]. So I think that the hygienization of organic matter by composting in domestic composters is a legend! Moreover, "organic" domestic gardeners have serious problems with diseases and often spend a lot of time ... treating!

Rather, I rely on the biological activity of the soil to clean it. It is proven that this activity, the richness in organic matter, the presence of the rhizosphere or the mycorrhizae “block” the development of diseases when inoculated [various tests].

Always the famous paradigm shift: either the man does (here, he sterilizes, he fertilizes, he treats ...) or the man supports the living system, feeds him, and he does in his place. ..

I took the second option radically. For now, it works.


2 or 3 questions:

I never put anything else in my little composter except strictly vegetable matter (peelings, grass, shredded dry stalks, twigs, leftover vegetables, etc.), so never animal products;
I stirred often, I'm sure it never went up to 65 ... but I left for a long time, waited until it was really well decomposed, with a "good smell of forest humus" before using the compost thus obtained (2 years and over).

However, I also put in this composter leaves or stems of cabbage, broccoli a little "sick", sticky, often affected by small white flies (whiteflies?).

So I wonder, is it risky to use such unhygienized compost?
the biological activity of the soil must also be able to be exerted after spreading the compost, to "clean" it?
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