Le Potager du Sloth: Gardening without fatigue more than Bio

Agriculture and soil. Pollution control, soil remediation, humus and new agricultural techniques.
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Re: The Kitchen Garden Sloth: Gardening without fatigue more than Bio




by Moindreffor » 13/07/18, 09:54

question
I want to make my soil myself, because very disappointed with the one sold in gardening this year
I plan to combine semi soil, coffee grounds and mowing of dried grass
a growing medium, a slow release nitrogen source (the marc) and a quick release (turf) if I'm not mistaken : Mrgreen:
I would like to put these ingredients 3 in a tray to mix well, but in dry form, to be able to make mass measurements, to achieve different mixtures
the idea is to wet the mixes some time before use, the questions are as follows
If I humidify very early, will I not "transform" the grass and grounds into nitrogen?
will the released nitrogen stay in the media or risk leaching when watering?
3 wetting weeks before use is enough or not?
Is it better to sow in a semi-classic soil and transplant into a richer soil afterwards?
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Re: The Kitchen Garden Sloth: Gardening without fatigue more than Bio




by Did67 » 13/07/18, 10:38

Moindreffor wrote:do we know what will be recommended in place of the Bordeaux mixture, especially in organic?


Very probably ... the "Bordeaux mixture" "because there are no other solutions as effective and so inexpensive" [I quote from memory, and summarize a bit in passing].

Instead of 6 kg / ha per year, it would seem that we are moving towards 5 kg / ha per year "smoothed over several years" [roughly, the "difficult" years we can put more, on condition that after 5 years I believe, the "average does not exceed 5 kg per ha and per year!]

And this under pressure from "organic lobbies" [organic certified AB, commercial; I will specify this before janic goes up in the towers - it is the vast majority of the "organic" French or European production, that which one finds in the stores ...

Get the idea out of your head that "organic" [certified organic AB, commercial] is all white!

Even if it is better than conventional - except on this critical point of copper, poison that no longer disappears from our soil. A dramatic question swept under the table in the name of farm yields / profitability!

The "organic" dogma should have specified that substances of natural origin were authorized [on the grounds that living beings know how to decompose them - which is true for substances organiques, excluding heavy metals (as we exclude radioactivity, however natural). Instead, we lock ourselves into dogma. It did not take a lot of general knowledge to know that one of the first metallurgies mastered by man was that of copper, because we find native copper (in the metal state), in nature (like silver or gold). And therefore, it is that it does not oxidize easily !!! [Iron is not found in metallic form because it oxidizes and "rusts"; is deposited in the form of oxides, from which it is extracted by reduction in blast furnaces] It was enough to think 5 minutes ...

I admit that for commercial producers this is not easy. If I had to "ensure" a production, and if I did not succeed with decoctions, essential oils, rock powders, whey, etc., the effectiveness of which is quite relative [all serious tests, with protocol and statistical treatments show it], which does not mean zero, I would use a synthetic fungicide (which then breaks down). Rather than copper. But I would immediately be removed from the "organic" label !!! [Note, the question of the "durability" of synthetic pesticides is crucial for certain organochlorine derivatives, which are particularly stable - including the famous DDT = DichlorodiphénylTrichloroethane, much less, even low for others, very labile. Note that in DDT, there is Cl which gives a stable combination, but also two phenolic rings - diphenyl - which give the most stable organic molecules - therefore DDT "accumulates"]
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Re: The Kitchen Garden Sloth: Gardening without fatigue more than Bio




by perseus » 13/07/18, 12:24

Hello,

As I said in another post, the Lobby bio has, on the precise subject of copper, shown a certain duplicity by defending it but not too strongly and if possible by hiding behind the "conventional" because Mr and Mrs Michu believe that Bio does not process and that it is comfortable.

The current position is moving towards a limit at 4kg / ha / year smoothed against 6 currently. It can pass but it takes not a succession of difficult years and requires guys who are really good in their management and all climates are not equal. Good agri (bio) who lost big I've seen again this year and people do not realize what it can hold: two tractors down at the wrong time, the storm that should not, nozzles clogged on a spray, an employee who took his bridges in May or another who is on sick leave (and even getting up to 4h30 and asking retired daddy to put it does not always happen) ...
There is currently no real alternative to copper. Germans allow the use of phosphonates to reduce doses of Cu, French bio refused this option. Some good Nordic countries want to ban, but one wonders if this does not amount to externalizing pollution eventually.
There are good margins of progress on the products especially by working on the qualities of the sprayers, the targeted spraying, confined spray ... I saw a proto with targeted spraying micronized herbicide, controlled by camera, it divides the doses by 50.

Indeed, I also deplore the fact that Bio sometimes has a too dogmatic position of principle creating a de facto Manichean cleavage between "the axis of good" and "the axis of evil".
It would seem beneficial to me to imagine rather the possibility of using a synthetic product once from among a well-identified and authorized panoply of which we know its ability to degrade. In addition when you have only one "shot" it forces you to think carefully before using it and I find it more educational, you already break the dynamic of everything automatic.
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Re: The Kitchen Garden Sloth: Gardening without fatigue more than Bio




by Did67 » 13/07/18, 13:29

Your position delights me, coming from a professional! That's about what I think!

I think that we should first of all "impose" specifications on a fungicide of synthesis to use in last resort on bio, with the condition that the molecule is very labile and that the products of degradation do not have major effects in term of health, effects on the biodiversity. Rather than dogmatically clinging to copper - which we know will NEVER be labile!

Public or private labs might find this product as long as there is a large and growing market.

We know how to introduce "bridges" into organic molecules, which yields them sensitive to oxidation or UV ...

It is true that the media keep showering us with the famous "it's organic, therefore without treatment - period!". Even very recently it struck me on France2 about I don't know what. From repetition to repetition, this stupidity "becomes a truth. If they knew what quantities and what volumes we spray organically !!! If they knew how much copper is deleterious for fungal biodiversity, algae ... It doesn't It's not just human health (here, we can consider that the copper residues, at the usual doses, are not very troublesome), even if it is very important.

Instead, we sodomize Drosophila to know if the phosphonates are natural or not ... We reject the Frutogard on the grounds that it is an algae extract by a chemical process ...
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Re: The Kitchen Garden Sloth: Gardening without fatigue more than Bio




by Adrien (ex-nico239) » 13/07/18, 14:35

Perseus wrote:Hello,

As I said in another post, the Lobby bio has, on the precise subject of copper, shown a certain duplicity by defending it but not too strongly and if possible by hiding behind the "conventional" because Mr and Mrs Michu believe that Bio does not process and that it is comfortable.

The current position is moving towards a limit at 4kg / ha / year smoothed against 6 currently. It can pass but it takes not a succession of difficult years and requires guys who are really good in their management and all climates are not equal. Good agri (bio) who lost big I've seen again this year and people do not realize what it can hold: two tractors down at the wrong time, the storm that should not, nozzles clogged on a spray, an employee who took his bridges in May or another who is on sick leave (and even getting up to 4h30 and asking retired daddy to put it does not always happen) ...
There is currently no real alternative to copper. Germans allow the use of phosphonates to reduce doses of Cu, French bio refused this option. Some good Nordic countries want to ban, but one wonders if this does not amount to externalizing pollution eventually.
There are good margins of progress on the products especially by working on the qualities of the sprayers, the targeted spraying, confined spray ... I saw a proto with targeted spraying micronized herbicide, controlled by camera, it divides the doses by 50.

Indeed, I also deplore the fact that Bio sometimes has a too dogmatic position of principle creating a de facto Manichean cleavage between "the axis of good" and "the axis of evil".
It would seem beneficial to me to imagine rather the possibility of using a synthetic product once from among a well-identified and authorized panoply of which we know its ability to degrade. In addition when you have only one "shot" it forces you to think carefully before using it and I find it more educational, you already break the dynamic of everything automatic.


I quote your post but I could have quoted those of Didier: exciting ...

I can still hear our organic market gardener tell me when we bought our tomato and eggplant plants ... that because of the rains they had to put Bordeaux mixture but that it was "nothing" .. (like my neighbor yesterday on his potatoes ... grrr should I have done the same ???)

Are they in good faith when they say "nothing" ... adding however that it was the 1th time since 10 years ago (thinking that I was aware of organic legislation ???)

In short for many more the Bordeaux mixture that seems to be "nothing" .... or at worst organic
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Re: The Kitchen Garden Sloth: Gardening without fatigue more than Bio




by perseus » 13/07/18, 15:24

Hello,


The main concern of Cu is the cumulative aspect in the soil. At the level of your plants it is not a big problem if your marketer makes a pulverizer.
After that, what does "nothing" mean in this circumstance: "not a lot" (OK, okay, why not) or then "it's nothing, it's not toxic" (which is not quite? exact ). Cu in Bordeaux (or other) boiled form remains an active ingredient. I cannot pass judgment on your market garden. Well if indeed it is the first time in 10 years, there are much worse I imagine.
The tomatoes I did not do anything at all this year, but it is that there was a major change, I put them under tunnel, Did widely talked about these questions. By cons, dirt verticilliose, I will have to abandon the old varieties.

However, the usefulness of copper in preventing fungal diseases is also cumulative. Clearly spraying 10 times 100g / Ha is better than applying 1 time 1kg / ha. So there is hardly anything worse than seeing a Sunday gardener suddenly "turning blue" his potatoes or tomatoes on July 15th because he saw a black cloud (seen with my eyes).

But there are so many different situations. Here in this thread we talk about Colorado potato ... I've never seen one at home since I garden (I touch wood). Is it because I have a great or magical method (so that those who have and treat are really nazes) or because I only make potatoes anecdotally in an area little affected and therefore with a inoculum probably very weak? :)


nico239 wrote:
I quote your post but I could have quoted those of Didier: exciting ...

I can still hear our organic market gardener tell me when we bought our tomato and eggplant plants ... that because of the rains they had to put Bordeaux mixture but that it was "nothing" .. (like my neighbor yesterday on his potatoes ... grrr should I have done the same ???)

Are they in good faith when they say "nothing" ... adding however that it was the 1th time since 10 years ago (thinking that I was aware of organic legislation ???)

In short for many more the Bordeaux mixture that seems to be "nothing" .... or at worst organic
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Re: The Kitchen Garden Sloth: Gardening without fatigue more than Bio




by Did67 » 13/07/18, 21:46

I would be more precise about this "nothing":

a) for you, as a customer who bought these plants, it is peanuts and therefore quite negligible, both from the point of view of your health (we can think that this micro-dose will even be beneficial to your health!) that from the point of view of the health of your soil, and wider of the environment in which you cultivate (fauna, flora, water tables ...).

b) for the producer, a treatment, in fact, does not reach the thresholds from which the effects on the soil organisms are significant: if it acts on the mushrooms and the algae, it will be in the first few mm of the soil ; mycorrhizae are lower; after dozens and dozens of annual treatments, 80 or 90% (order of magnitude) copper is still in the first 15 cm, where it will stay! The worm populations are only significantly affected starting from dose of the order of 100 to 150 mg of copper / kg of soil ...

So indeed, treatment is insignificant.

It is repetition, year after year, which ends up "cooking a soil slowly". The tragedy of copper is not to be labile! But then not at all !!!
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Re: The Kitchen Garden Sloth: Gardening without fatigue more than Bio




by Adrien (ex-nico239) » 13/07/18, 23:35

Did67 wrote:I would be more precise about this "nothing":

a) for you, as a customer who bought these plants, it is peanuts and therefore quite negligible, both from the point of view of your health (we can think that this micro-dose will even be beneficial to your health!) that from the point of view of the health of your soil, and wider of the environment in which you cultivate (fauna, flora, water tables ...).

b) for the producer, a treatment, in fact, does not reach the thresholds from which the effects on the soil organisms are significant: if it acts on the mushrooms and the algae, it will be in the first few mm of the soil ; mycorrhizae are lower; after dozens and dozens of annual treatments, 80 or 90% (order of magnitude) copper is still in the first 15 cm, where it will stay! The worm populations are only significantly affected starting from dose of the order of 100 to 150 mg of copper / kg of soil ...

So indeed, treatment is insignificant.

It is repetition, year after year, which ends up "cooking a soil slowly". The tragedy of copper is not to be labile! But then not at all !!!


In fact, I did not worry about anything particularly for us.

I had already talked about it and you already reassured us.

But it is on this notion of "nothing" that conveys the Bordeaux mixture or that it is conveyed to hide its harmful effects in the long term.

My neighbor who says have spread on his potatoes, if you have 3 rainy spring in a row he will 3 years in a row or even 4 or 5 because for him it will always be "nothing".
And he is in good faith.

For the pro I think it's different.
She knows it's "nothing" since this is the first time since 10 years ago (provided that's true) but maybe they did SEVERAL sprays .... who knows.

And even if it's actually "nothing" and everything she said is true ... she conveys this idea of ​​"nothing".

And if I'm not a fan of forum I think it's nothing.

A smarter answer would have been to tell me: it's "nothing" but it should not happen again next year ... or something like this a little more educational than this "nothing" a bit manipulator of crowds ....

However, while saying that, I remain convinced that they did it as a last resort and as I said at that moment: for them it is their livelihood so I can understand.

But as far as I'm concerned I prefer to lose all my potatoes rather than using them.

About this Logis du Pin (997m altitude but on the edge of the Var, Alpes Maritimes and Alpes de Haute Provence) I saw today that they had just planted potatoes. ON THE GROUND
I do not know if they had grown these plans in the past, but it's a good news to see that they are only planting now.
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Re: The Kitchen Garden Sloth: Gardening without fatigue more than Bio




by to be chafoin » 14/07/18, 00:28

Did67 wrote:The drama of copper is not to be labile! But then not at all !!!
But he is not leached? It does not start polluting water and groundwater? This is what I can not understand since 60 million consumers evoked water pollution ...
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Re: The Kitchen Garden Sloth: Gardening without fatigue more than Bio




by Did67 » 14/07/18, 09:49

In the ground, it is not carried away. It's certain. After I do not remember how many decades of treatment, we still find 80 or 90% of the copper in the first 15 cm ... And it decreases very quickly below. This is what creates the problem, via accumulations year after year (when in effect, a treatment is "nothing"). At the same time, for the tablecloths, it's a chance !!! Nothing is ever THAT bad (since nothing is perfect in this world). What is an advantage here and now will be a disadvantage elsewhere and another time. And reciprocally. [This is the main reason why the "ayatollahs" must be wrong somewhere!]

What to choose is not an agronomists' review !!! They resume, generally very seriously of course, information. They investigate ... But they are not immune from error. Most likely, they allude to an insidious pollution, little considered: the rinsing of the devices, even the "surpluses," poured into the sewers. Gardeners are used to this. The farmers have sprayers which "recycle" the rinsing water from the device, in an annex tank. The best equipped have a sort of washing station with a "biobed" (a layer where the rinsing water will be "treated") ...

Do you have the offending passage? I would like to check what they wrote.
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