P (otager) of P (arouseux) P (artaged) in Champagne

[Did67]

Yes. We "anthropize" the space in question. Which, in our climates (at home) would inevitably tend towards a deciduous forest made from beeches, with here and there "holes", where an old tree would have collapsed. There would be brambles, grasses, a few flowers, a little game and very quickly young tree regrowths which in a few decades, would restore a "certain void" around them (by pricking the light by top) - only a few adapted species would thrive there: fungi of course, and, among the autotrophs, a few bulbous plants with a very short cycle for example, where a few parasites do without light (but they are no longer autotrophs) ...

So yes, compared to a vegetable garden, an anthropized space par excellence even if it is a lazy vegetable garden [see the paragraph on the "conductor" man who imposes his score without playing for all that in my book].

There, in my remark above, I was more fundamentally about the meaning of life and the fact of believing ourselves to be indispensable "to the living". Without us, without anthropization, a "living system" would remain in place and continue. In the kitchen garden.

But when we decide to make a vegetable garden, even in a lighter form in a kitchen garden lazy, in a thoughtful and balanced way, we intervene!

[QuentinDida]

We intervene, it's true, but at the margin. That was the meaning of what I was trying to formulate as an idea, probably with a little too much emphasis: one acts (as a human being) in a space of time so small that it does not seem "planned. "that we are interested in what will happen after us and that we try to project ourselves into another temporal configuration, on the scale of plants, the cosmos or whatever.

Obviously this reflection leads to nothing other than our finiteness, I do not want to paraphrase Nietzsche who actually explained that after the death of God, it would be difficult not to recognize that the existence has no purpose and that my faith we had only to fight with this. Despite this observation, it is true that there is pleasure in making jams, transforming garden products, sharing them with friends, etc. but I often have the unfortunate tendency to try to distance myself from my condition as a man, to understand that there is no way out of it, and to find there some opportunity for escheat.

To avoid too much dropping the mood on this forum, or to avoid making it a benchmark for painful metaphysical considerations, I will just come back to the idea of ​​"the plants (or the vegetable garden) do not need me".

I unroll my hay or whatever other mulch at the start of the season (moreover, I am currently watching a "training" from Konrad Schreiber who explains that in reality the C / N of a mulch is important, the more nitrogen will ultimately be important. Despite many calculations, his reasoning is based on many assumptions that I can not explain to myself; I leave the link before further study on my part

), I sow or transplant my plants little by little. Obviously, if I try to do that intelligently, by imagining clever growing associations, by looking for particular varieties or other, if I try to intelligently "design" my garden, it takes a lot of time upstream, but that comes back a little to what we call in the theater "work at the table" and not "work on the set".

Concretely, once the season has started, there are always adjustments to be made, but I have the impression that the "physical" work is almost non-existent.

Therefore, if the preparation of the culture and the reflections that surround it (i.e. also studies, readings, even trips, meetings etc.) represent a much more substantial work than that more immediate in the field or in the vegetable garden (symbolized by a flow of sweat or oil), can we not consider that the model of the horticulturalist or the farmer induced by the practices that we are trying to develop would tend to become an office engineer rather than a traditional peasant, in other words tending more towards the intellectual than towards the manual, towards the centralized organization of a micro-system rather than the naive segmentation between small units of culture representative of the usual domestic vegetable garden ? It goes a little in the direction of the conductor it seems to me, which is however in opposition with the official speeches of the left and of people who "respect the planet" in a general way and who praise the "return to the earth "and the need for" peasant agriculture "

[Moindreffor]

in a "soft" dictatorship, some call it a republic
it is necessary as in any dictatorship, weaken the spirits, so you have understood everything, the return to the earth, the work of the earth, requires a lot of physical expenditure at the expense of the intellect, for a meager harvest
the approach presented by Didier is the opposite, make work head to save the arms, and harvest a lot, which is frightening in itself for our leaders, people who depend less on them, who think better and who have time to think of something else

[phil53]

For my part, rather than the planning engineer, I see myself no longer as an animist philosopher.
I favor plants that interest me by respecting the rest (weeds and parasite) I favor my camp but respecting the living. The angels share is part of the game.
To each his garden, I exchange but no longer try to convince.
Didier brought me that, everyone has his vision of the garden and is not necessarily wrong.
Any plant with its usefulness will not be this like solar collector, it is enough to limit their desire of extension.
Help the living, he will return it.

[Did67]

I leave aside any reflection of a political nature. She brings me nothing. These are, from my point of view, ego battles that illuminate very little. But I do not spend my time reproaching them!

Concerning the "lawns" that a great number of us maintain [which I have maintained for a very long time!], And therefore to "sterilize" ["what is the point of having a golf lawn when you are not playing golf? golf? " is one of my expressions], it is not the politicians who should be "blamed". Should we adopt a law which "obliges" everyone to leave 50% of its surface fallow ??? I do not think so. It's up to everyone to do their own self-examination and wonder why they don't see the point of a happy mess like mine, where browsers of all kinds, butterflies, birds are having fun. No need to fight to ban glyphosate - banning is like a form of dictatorship of looking after what other people are doing ...

[However: I vote, I express opinions, I participate in debates, etc ...]

What I wanted to add to your discussions is that except for being sickly "addicted to work", the way of gardening that I recommend is a liberating strategy. Where even the dogmatic forms of "organic" or "permaculture" agriculture lock up. In "it must be done like that ...". Where is freedom, if "must" ???

I think that to become civilized is to free oneself from constraints, it is to limit "material" things in order to have freedom of the mind, it is to free up time ... It is the freedom to discuss, freedom to try, to see, to understand ... To do as one wishes [within the limits of respect for the freedoms of others]. So let the neighbor do it too, as he wants!

When, in the conclusion of my book, I speak of "changing the paradigm", it is this "freedom which civilizes" that I am talking about. No the enslavement of "methods" which bring us back to the rank of ants!

I am happy when I “lead” you towards this paradigm shift!

[Did67]

I am currently looking at a "training" by Konrad Schreiber who explains that in reality the higher the C / N of a mulch, the higher the nitrogen supply ultimately will be. Despite a lot of calculations, his reasoning is based on a lot of postulates that I cannot explain to myself;

I did not take the time to re-look at it and I do not remember what it says.

But it's very simple :

a) if the surface material is too low in N [which mathematically means a high C / N; too much C / not enough N], we have what is called "nitrogen hunger" or "depressive effect".

This is exactly what I blame for mulching with straw (or cardboard, or sawdust, or dead leaves ...)

b) therefore it is necessary to correct this by contributions of nitrogen (N). And all the more so as the C / N is high. This is calculated from the contents of C. It is very easy to find how much nitrogen is missing ... I suppose that's what he does.

You can opt for a balanced material, such as hay! That was my choice.

Or can correct the lack of nitrogen over a longer period of time, two or three years: cultivate fodder legumes (in particular), which will fix nitrogen in the air (all the better as the soil is poor in nitrogen!); legumes "vegetables" are less effective ... This is often what happens in permaculture, after disappointing years (except for those who have never seen "beautiful vegetables" and is satisfied with 3 tomatoes and 2 radishes) , it works out. We then think that the "method" is good. Not at all: it's just that nature corrects the mistakes of bad gardeners!

Note that the ratio C / N is only one element in the reasoning of fertility! The materials poor in N are usually also in other elements (P or K, magnesium, manganese, iron, sulfur ...) ...

[Julienmos]

I had watched K Schreiber's video, I remember (or I think I remember) that he gave great importance to "free" soil bacteria, fixing nitrogen from the air in the soil and to the soil - straw interface according to him, and it would be these bacteria that provide the nitrogen that is lacking in the straw (for what I understood and if I remember correctly).

Personally, I have good reason to believe that it is false, in any case the nitrogen hunger I experienced (and it is very real) by putting in some places not straw, but stems dry crushed plants, which is a little similar question poverty of the material in N.

[Julienmos]

cultivate forage legumes (in particular), which will fix nitrogen from the air (especially as the soil is low in nitrogen!);

experiment carried out this spring, I had sown clover of Alexandria in furrows traced in a thick layer of false BRF, in a corner of garden (a lot of "in" there)

and indeed, they grew very well (invaded by thistles too), have bloomed lately, and I was able to mow a fairly large biomass! suddenly, I will periodically reside on this small plot.

[Did67]

All the data seem to converge on the fact that apart from the rice fields, these "free" fixing bacteria (which must feed themselves while the symbiotics, of the rhizobium genus, "deal" with the plants) play for quantities of the order of 10 units per ha.

The rice fields are a particular "agrosystem", where in water (hot enough) these free bacteria find a little their "original" environment (the "soup" in which life is born). We cannot compare with a field or a garden ...

Symbiotics play in orders of magnitude of the order of a hundred kg.

[This is one of those "interpretations" where I diverge from Schreiber]

[Did67]

cultivate forage legumes (in particular), which will fix nitrogen from the air (especially as the soil is low in nitrogen!);

experiment carried out this spring, I had sown clover of Alexandria in furrows traced in a thick layer of false BRF, in a corner of garden (a lot of "in" there)

and indeed, they grew very well (invaded by thistles too), have bloomed lately, and I was able to mow a fairly large biomass! suddenly, I will periodically reside on this small plot.

Thank you for this testimony which is precious to me. That's what I called somewhere, for those who have surface, build "natural nitrogen pumps", by creating a nitrogen hunger that the living system will strive to fill! In this context of extreme hunger (created by materials poor in nitrogen such as straw, sawdust, "false BRF" ...), fixation reaches its peak (this can go up to 200 kg of nitrogen fixed by ha and per year!). Fodder legumes are the champions.

To control the thistles (or are it damsels ???), mow very early, before their flowering. The legume repels very quickly. The thistle is exceeded. While providing biomass. You must mow as soon as the clover blooms. He is at his best. To push it like that 4 or 5 times in the season ...

I'm really glad you can testify that. I had the idea. Obvious for me. But I did not realize it!