New kitchen garden lazy (Schiltigheim 67300)

Agriculture and soil. Pollution control, soil remediation, humus and new agricultural techniques.
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Re: New kitchen garden lazy (Schiltigheim 67300)




by to be chafoin » 06/06/18, 14:21

Did67 wrote:Here, some answers to questions (but seen from the point of view of the manufacturers, even if it is taken up by an independent newspaper - Phytoma): https://www.certiseurope.fr/fileadmin/d ... hytoma.pdf
I might still get called the air of nothing communist cucumber but ... for my part, I would call this document an infomercial from an international company (of Japanese origin apparently) that invests in industrial biocontrol (biopesticides, soil disinfectants, ...) and promotes them, in particular through advertisements in specialized newspapers like this one (whose "independence" we can therefore doubt), apparently with the aim of to compete with the world leader in chemical slug control, on the world agricultural market, including in conventional agriculture. Suffice to say, initially, that this kind of company does not revolve at all in the world of "more than organic" and the protection of living soils by marketing, for example, a kind of Bordeaux mixture that they themselves call "the most concentrated copper on the market".

It is now common knowledge that large companies invest a (large) share of their capital in this kind of scientific and even pseudo-scientific promotion, given the place that techno-science has taken today.

Regarding the content of the document, and if we are to rely on the information offered, we learn that this pesticide (is it the same for the "little" Ferramol for individuals?) "Acts on a big number species of slugs gray and black", that, contrary to what has been said previously, it is"almost insoluble, not washed out by rain". The product is weakly toxic for humans, a little more toxic for birds, a little more for worms. I am not a specialist (is there a toxicologist in the room?). ..but some questions / remarks: there is no test on bacteria, is it normal? The tests on worms, if I am to believe the figures in your book, were operated on the equivalent of 3 times 1 m2 of natural meadow! Is this scientifically convincing at the extended level? Do the figures announced on aquatic organisms actually correspond to a "respect" of these organisms, including in hydromorphic soil like mine? does it contain cadmium, as is the case for fertilizers (and here the natural presence of Cd in the soil does not prevent it from being a source of soil contamination)? ... etc I stops me there because the complexity of living things does not fit well with these experiences.

Perhaps this product is practically harmless as this document seems to tell us. Surveys indicate that garden soils are highly polluted, especially in heavy metals. There is a staggering fall in animal populations. Also gardens with living soil may have a responsibility, in the future they could become refuge areas ... This may seem contradictory: I put a little of my old box of Ferramol 3 days ago. .but I wonder if the use of this pesticide is really necessary to the point of violating one of the fundamental principles of the lazy vegetable garden.
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Re: New kitchen garden lazy (Schiltigheim 67300)




by Moindreffor » 06/06/18, 21:01

to be chafoin wrote:This may seem contradictory: I put a little of my old box of Ferramol 3 days ago ... but I wonder if the use of this pesticide is really necessary to the point of violating one of the fundamental principles of the vegetable patch lazy.

you mean blue granules, not ferramol, yes it's tempting when you're tired of being eaten up

if not for the toxicity, or non-toxicity, of this or that thing, you have to keep your common sense, do we use large quantities, I bought a package last year, it will do this year too, and there may be some left for the start of next year, so put on a little toxic product ...

cooking salt is bad for health and it is over-the-counter, alcohol the same, we are just entitled to "one to drink in moderation", so let's not be more royalist than the king, then I agree with Didier for example for Bordeaux mixture, copper sulphate is harmful so even if it is authorized in organic, I would not put any more, because there it is the harmfulness is proven for the life of the soil
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Re: New kitchen garden lazy (Schiltigheim 67300)




by Did67 » 06/06/18, 21:49

Do not "judge" the granules by the color: I have seen Ferramol - finally ferric phosphate - in the form of blue granules, from a well-known brand. No doubt they had noticed that some gardeners are looking for the blue granules without reading the labels!

It is therefore necessary to take a look at the composition, always indicated:

- metaldehyde

ou

- ferric phosphate.

That is the question. Not the color.
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Re: New kitchen garden lazy (Schiltigheim 67300)




by Did67 » 06/06/18, 22:08

Yes, I traveled too fast. It is an "advertisement" and not an article of Phytoma (which is an agricultural magazine - which I described a little quickly as independent; like any press, it also lives off advertising; and its journalists, as often, do not only take back the information they are given; there is hardly any independent research any longer; the MA files - Marketing Authorization - are funded by companies; so yes, "independent" is all relative ).

Le Potager du Laesseux is not a dogmatic vegetable garden: it is a question of producing a maximum while doing a minimum, and while respecting the living system more than the "organic" do (in the sense certified organic, standards, on sale in stores - others "organic" are "more than organic").

a) I doubt that there are perfect situations on earth; idealists, with rare exceptions, just turn a blind eye to their own "compromises" ...

b) I therefore think that everything is only "best possible compromise" (see what I write about hay in my book, which is not presented as an "ideal"); from morning to night, each of us, if he is lucid and wants to watch what he is doing as critically as he watches what others are doing, makes compromises ...

c) so I think I remain "more than organic", while using seeds from "anywhere", possibly Ferramol, or potassium bicarbonate (and not sodium) ...

Of course, everyone can set even more ambitious goals and so much the better.

Speaking of slugs, this evening, after a good stormy rain and under the drops, I picked up "quite a few". I am coming to the end of the nightmare! I will be able to reseed carrots after having cleaned up the "square" in question. I lost very few plants, thanks to the subterfuge of the "desiccated milkweed".
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Re: New kitchen garden lazy (Schiltigheim 67300)




by to be chafoin » 06/06/18, 22:11

Moindreffor wrote:you mean blue granules, not ferramol, yes it's tempting when you're tired of being eaten up
No, I was talking about Ferramol not Metaldehyde.
Yes, that's it, the question must be asked again: do I really need to put it on? Perhaps Ferramol and excess phosphate in the soil will be in 10 years like Bordeaux mixture and copper contamination today ... 10 years ago almost nobody questioned copper sulphate ( and still today a neighbor tells me that it is essential for the stabilization of the wine after pressing!).
This does not mean that it will necessarily be the same story with Ferramol but ... it remains a pesticide, when I buy a box I give money to a multinational company which makes profits on the destruction of living things, soil contamination and conventional chemical intensive cultivation, and finally phosphate mines are a global issue that can contribute to the destabilization of countries like Morocco. I know said like that in a forum, it's a little "khmer vert" ... : Mrgreen:
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Re: New kitchen garden lazy (Schiltigheim 67300)




by Did67 » 06/06/18, 22:19

to be chafoin wrote: Perhaps Ferramol and excess phosphate in the soil will be in 10 years like Bordeaux mixture and copper contamination today ... 10 years ago almost nobody questioned copper sulphate ( and still today a neighbor tells me that it is essential for the stabilization of the wine after pressing!).


1) Oh no: because there is a lot of phosphate in the soil and iron too! Soil analyzes only give "assimilable phosphorus - generally according to an" Olsen "or even" Dyer "protocol ... But there are significant quantities, in more or less assimilable forms.

There is no comparison possible.

We cannot speak of "contamination" when it comes to a plant nutrient, supplied in the form of hundreds of kg / ha as fertilizer. The "Ferramol" is peanuts next door. And it's a permanent cycle.

Where copper is a metal that accumulates!

2) Oh yes! And I was not the only one. But the fashion for "organic" was already too strong. And so we continued and we continue, in the name of a sector that cannot be destroyed!

Copper is essential for those who do not want to take the risk of doing without it. Only a few "purist" winegrowers do it!
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Re: New kitchen garden lazy (Schiltigheim 67300)




by Did67 » 06/06/18, 22:36

Let me specify a little, for the Phosphorus: the total P is approximately 10 times higher than the "assimilable P" as it is analyzed by various methods to determine the richness of the agricultural grounds and to fix the fertilizations.

The order of magnitude is 1,5 g per kg of soil (dry). Very variable, of course, depending on soil fertility, fertilization, etc.

The density of the soil being 1,2 t / m3, the quantity of soil under 1 m² of average thickness (50 cm) is 600 kg. Which therefore contain about 1 kg of total P.

All this with a ladle.

So if you dump your sachet of Ferramol of 500 g on 1 m², at 1%, that makes 5 g of P in a place where there is 1 kg. It would be very awkward!

Respecting the doses (5 g / m²), you put 5 g of Ferramol and therefore you bring 5 hundredths of g of P in a place where there is 1 kg.

Not enough to upset a balance ... Especially since the 1 kg can be two in very rich soil!

This is why I allowed myself to write "Oh no!".
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Re: New kitchen garden lazy (Schiltigheim 67300)




by guibnd » 06/06/18, 23:27

Indeed, your figures give an idea of ​​the safety of ferramol! We are not going to upset or saturate the ground
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Re: New kitchen garden lazy (Schiltigheim 67300)




by olivier75 » 07/06/18, 07:25

Hello,
An argument to think about, by the vegetable garden which says no, (YouTube) there will be 50 species of protected snails in France, and feramol is not selective.
I think we are far from being crazy about phytos, I managed to do without it last year, (only one pass), not this year, (almost the recommended dose of 1kg / 400m2, (I will see the effectiveness just now) and next year I will organize a more efficient feeding in order to go to the least. our gardens are already all not bad compared to our neighbors and what forum tends to improve us further, thoughtfully and not politically.
Olivier.
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Re: New kitchen garden lazy (Schiltigheim 67300)




by Moindreffor » 07/06/18, 08:40

olivier75 wrote:Hello,
An argument to think about, by the vegetable garden which says no, (YouTube) there will be 50 species of protected snails in France, and feramol is not selective.
I think we are far from being crazy about phytos, I managed to do without it last year, (only one pass), not this year, (almost the recommended dose of 1kg / 400m2, (I will see the effectiveness just now) and next year I will organize a more efficient feeding in order to go to the least. our gardens are already all not bad compared to our neighbors and what forum tends to improve us further, thoughtfully and not politically.
Olivier.

be careful with this kind of info, protected species are often present in non-vegetable areas, so it's as if you put in your garden an elephant scarer and you say that it is effective, it makes it possible to artificially give value to your words, effectively he does not lie, but fails to tell much of the truth
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