Vegetable garden of the (super) lazy in the 04 (800m)

[phil53]

I use the technique of Didier on 5 cabbage apple. 3 to 4 buds grow, this makes 3 times I eat a cabbage fricassee for 2 people.
They are not headed but very tender even when it starts to have floral buds.

[Adrien (ex-nico239)]

Ok thank you and for the salad?

[Adrien (ex-nico239)]

I am not between "Monsanto" and "Pascal Poot-Bourguignon-Morrison" (it is a mistake to put Bourguignon with the other two! I do not always agree 100% with him, but all the same, he has a remarkable knowledge of soil biology).

I find that the 3 are very different:

Morrison speaks very little of agronomy in his book permaculture. He just says that you can do it all the way down to the ground, he gets very little into the details but just gives some examples of ways to cover the ground. The rest of the book is more about various arrangements, philosophy, choices of perennial varieties. There is no dogma in his book, even covering the ground can be questioned at home.
From my point of view it is quite close to a lazy gardener without the theoretical knowledge part.

Many of those who claim permaculture on youtube are extremely peremptory and give recipes ready to work everywhere and all the time while showing a profound misunderstanding of the functioning of a soil (Poot, Koppel, Forrer, permaterre ... )
There is often a lot of conspiracy in their remarks.

Bourguignon is on that it is another level but he made it a real business.

Yes, yes, as I said above, I should never have given a name.

I could have added did ... it is just the trajectory of "researcher" in the sense of I ask myself questions and I seek answers (as opposed to those who refuse any little novelty in PRIORI) that I wanted to put in Exergue and not them in particular, I have mislabelled the stuff.

As said above each "researcher" even those who seem to give ready-made recipes are sources if not inspired at least reflection.

After each one deduces what he wants.

But what I wanted to highlight (see the example of our neighborhood) is that the FACT of having at least the curiosity to see what others do differently from what we do is positive.

So whatever the state of mind a little peremptory or very pedagogic I am interested and then I infuse and pull out what comes out For my personal account

[Adrien (ex-nico239)]

Another question I heard you say that you cut your salads above the foot and that you let it grow back that is it?

If so, we can repeat how many times this formula which seems to me very economic

Yes. I cut above the last leaves which are in contact with the ground and damaged (so that one does not eat). Thus, the axillary buds (located in the axils of these leaves) develop in a few days.

On the "not to cut" varieties (Wonder of the 4 seasons, Grenoble red that I have there), it does not give much because it goes to seed quickly. We could harvest a sort of "mesclun" (small shoots).

There, I leave for the "biodiversity" ("the share of the angels") and the rhizodepositions: as long as I do not need the place, these regrow make photosynthesis and nourish my soil organisms ... Then, on stable varieties, I do my seed harvest, after that feeds a few foragers. Some of the seeds fall to the ground and I have spontaneous regrowth next year ...

In short, unlike salads to cut (Red Salad Bowl, etc.), it is not a "profitable" way to produce !!!

Ok of ac pigé thanks

I no longer have in mind what has been transplanted or sown
Tomorrow I see this with Mrs. and if you have already tested ....

[Did67]

As said above each "researcher" even those who seem to give ready-made recipes are sources if not inspired at least reflection.

Provided that they are researchers and not "preachers" of convictions, some of which are based only on "chances" ... Because then, we lock readers or viewers of videos in new fashions or religions ...

The risk, I live it, is that one fulfills a "need" to imitate, a need to have an easy and "definitive" answer and not a need to understand ... Or the notion that all of this is complex and that we do not understand everything, that we suffer in part, to collaborate with nature ...

This is what makes me regularly get out of the hinges.

[Adrien (ex-nico239)]

As said above each "researcher" even those who seem to give ready-made recipes are sources if not inspired at least reflection.

Provided that they are researchers and not "preachers" of convictions, some of which are based only on "chances" ... Because then, we lock readers or viewers of videos in new fashions or religions ...

The risk, I live it, is that one fulfills a "need" to imitate, a need to have an easy and "definitive" answer and not a need to understand ... Or the notion that all of this is complex and that we do not understand everything, that we suffer in part, to collaborate with nature ...

This is what makes me regularly get out of the hinges.

Oh no doubt but for my part I am not familiar enough with this "world" of xyz-culture to be able to discern the researchers of the preachers.

For the time being, I have not had the feeling of seeing or listening (or I have not seen the good videos or listened to the good interview?) Of the speakers who seemed to arrogate to themselves the detention of the truth.

Who are they?
That way I will save time

[Adrien (ex-nico239)]

So as salads we have
- radichetta
- lettuce appia

[Did67]

FYI, although not an "old variety", Appia is a "stable variety" (therefore a classic selection, not a hybrid) and therefore "multipliable" itself.

[Did67]

Who are they?
That way I will save time

It seems difficult to give names. There is a whole gradation. Myself, to talk only about what I know well, I would criticize some points that I was able to affirm 3 years ago ... even if the bulk remains valid in my eyes ...

I think there are two kinds of speeches:

a) those supported by a minimum of knowledge (and therefore respect) of the very complex mechanisms which are at work: the objective is then to "put to music" these mechanisms and to divert them without brutalizing them for our benefit, considering that my vegetable garden is an "anthropized" system (that is to say, oriented by man)

b) those who say things more or less eccentric, on the grounds that "it works"; which is a bit short, if we remember that conventional agriculture, rightly criticized, “it works” too; I have rarely - never in fact - seen an approach of productivity per unit area or per unit of work of permaculture [an INRA study on Bec-Hellouin assesses productivity per hectare, but happily does the deadlock on the multitude of trainees who parade there and constitute "free" labor; and the Bec-Hellouin itself does not claim - at least not today - permaculture) ... There is then often a "myth" founder ... For example, strikes me that a must of permaculture is the spiral ... Let such and such a spiral, because he needs to let off steam, because he finds it beautiful, no complaints ... But that it is necessary to cultivate in a spiral, or in hillocks, for me, it is indoctrination ... That inevitably, the "design" leads to that questions ... Etc ... Etc ...

Has anyone ever evaluated the "storage capacity" of a cubic meter of wood buried under a mound 1 wide and 10 m long, before professing the interest of burying wood ??? I have never seen a serious calculation. If you've seen any, send it to me.

If not, I'll do it ladle.

- a strip of earth of 1 mx 10 m, it is, on 30 cm useful, about 15 tons of earth (the apparent density of a soil varies of course; it is generally from 1,2 to 1,5 tons / m3); so to bury the wood, you have to "load" a big earth truck, twice!

- the cubic meter of wood is approximately 0,65 m3; very humid, it is about 50% water; dry, that's about 15%; therefore this stere “stores” 0,35 m3 of “available” water (between the moment it is wet and the moment it is dry), ie 350 l.

- rainfall over a growing season, let's say April-September, is about 300 mm; On 10 m², about 3 m3 is about 3 000 liters

- the usable reserve of my soil is, with a ladle, 150 mm, ie always over 10 m², 2 m3 of water; therefore 1 l in the "reservoir of my soil" at the end of winter ...

Let us summarize, knowing that it is just a ladle calculation (I would have to look for the precise climatic data, that I make a soil analysis to have its granulometry and seriously evaluate its RU - useful reserve), so an order of magnitude :

- at the end of winter, my soil, on a strip of 1 mx 10 m, therefore 10 m², stores 1 500 l usable by plants
- during the growing season, it will fall about 3 000 l of rain
- I can count on 4 500 l useful to my vegetables
- if I bury, under this band, a stere of wood, which is already work, this one will store about 350 l additional

For 7 or 8% more capacity, I would never make life, all this work. And I would not destroy all the balances already in place, the galleries of worms, I would not put the bacteria upside down, I would not tear the networks of filaments of mushrooms ...

What I do: hay to limit evaporation; a little BRF to "boost" the networks of fungi, which will go and look for water well beyond 30 cm, in the cracks of the stones, etc. (because after 30 cm, I fall on the stones; for those who have a useful meter of soil, the above calculation becomes even more ridiculous ...).

This is what I call a "belief", or a religion. And what I wanted to tell you that we can experiment, but if we do not give ourselves the means to see clearly, we can get lost more and more ... The one who has no compass, and who runs , if it is, it moves away from the goal! This is the whole question of "meaning" (of direction).

So yes, it's complicated. Yes, in a video, in an article, it is not difficult to discriminate against being the one who gives himself the means to have a realistic vision of things and the one who affirms what he believes. But normally happens the moment when you have enough pieces of the puzzle to see that "it does not stick" ...

[Adrien (ex-nico239)]

Agree with everything.

I was not even aware of this trick of burying wood ...
To recreate a forest type decomposition ???

You got a link on that thing?

And, oops, even less aware of the "spiral" ... késaco ???
Well I'll learn about the subject

Afterwards I think that for some the "it works" is asserted simply without totalizing thought

Conversely, listening to the "listeners" would have to be educated and developed at least a certain distance if not the critical spirit
"Gurus" also need credulous to thrive ...
In many areas many people have a "desire to believe", this reassures them, gives them the impression of having bases ... etc. This is the soil on which the "gurus" grow to preserve a formulation related to our subject.

For Bec Hellouin I know its existence but not at all neither its history nor that of its past and present objectives nor its profitability and the means used to achieve it or not.

I think that there must somewhere exist one or more serious studies that take stock of the comparative profitability of classical techniques and modes of economic culture.