Vegetable garden of the (super) lazy in the 04 (800m)

Agriculture and soil. Pollution control, soil remediation, humus and new agricultural techniques.
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Re: Laziness of the (super) lazy in the 04 (800m)




by Did67 » 01/06/17, 16:04

nico239 wrote:
As I said above pheno-perma and co ... it's not ready to reproduce or ready to plant but ready to adapt to its context ... which is not quite the same


I would be much much more severe. It is first a fashion, and then a religion. With what that entails as dogma and idiocy (when you don't believe it). Even in the name of a good philosophy. But Christianity is also based on "good principles". And ended up in religious wars or in inquisition, in forced conversion of the "savages", before settling down a little ... [I am talking about the social phenomenon "religion", and not about "faith", which is an individual fact, which I respect, even if I regret that believers need such crutches to live]

We have never seen a natural mechanism making mounds, any more than spirals. No plant grows better in a spiral or a keyhole! It doesn't make sense to start by messing up or killing everything in the name of natural gardening. It is even shocking and to wonder about the intellectual capacities of man! And burying fermentable organic matter (this is not the case with wood) as I sometimes see it, is quite simply to make a methaniser ... Of course, "it works". Like conventional agriculture, which still produces 95% of our food (despite the fact that everyone eats "organic", according to the impression we have; 2015 data!)

I don't know why, maybe this confused feeling of witnessing a vast swindle, but it annoys me! It is not enough to oppose something "bad" to be in the "good"!
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Re: Laziness of the (super) lazy in the 04 (800m)




by Adrien (ex-nico239) » 02/06/17, 16:47

Indeed you are severe ....

Is experimentation to be rejected "a priori"?

Many experiments or experiences have nothing to do with what happens in nature

But on this account we can wonder about what should not be done to "stick" to the IDEA (again it would be a wide debate) of nature that each of us is done.

If we aggregate all this under the name of research there is on one side the "Monsanto" (to summarize) and on the other hand the "Pascal Poot-Bourguignon-Morrison" (to summarize).

Between the two there is us.

Where to place the cursor of good and bad ... natural and natural anti?
Is the selection of Monsanto natural?
Is Poot's natural?

Did nature alone before the presence of man remain similar or did it evolve?
Or would she have evolved ???

From what date is evolution (due to human action commendable?

When we return to Europe potatoes or "golden apples" that would never have to leave their region "of origin" (if indeed their region of origin of the time is well their region of original origin and an even older people did not move them without our knowledge)

In short in pure orthodoxy we should I should only feed on what pushed ... (or place the cursor ???) go say 20 centuries before our era in the department of the Alpes de Haute Provence in my valley and point BARRE.

Because from a strict point of view (and lawyer of the devil) the Conquistadors and Monsanto is the same ...

But I do not understand what you mean by
It is not enough to oppose something "bad" to be in the "good"!

Uh aside and to go back to our kitchen garden : Lol: according to you it is better the whole oak leaves or crushed in breadcrumbs?
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Re: Laziness of the (super) lazy in the 04 (800m)




by Ahmed » 02/06/17, 17:05

Nico239, you write:
But I do not understand what you mean by
It is not enough to oppose something "bad" to be in the "good" !
What is "good" cannot be defined as the inverse symmetrical of "bad", it may not have no report, so taking the opposite of a nonsense often leads to another ...
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Re: Laziness of the (super) lazy in the 04 (800m)




by Did67 » 02/06/17, 17:25

nico239 wrote:
If we aggregate all this under the name of research there is on one side the "Monsanto" (to summarize) and on the other hand the "Pascal Poot-Bourguignon-Morrison" (to summarize).

Between the two there is us.



Indeed, I am expressing myself there without nuance, because I pity the thousands of people who are "dragged" (with their consent), into something that does not hold water (even if "it works"!) .

Should we still "experience" the fact that if we throw a stone in the air, it falls ??? When you know the laws of gravity, you know the answer. Ignoring him, he checks!

But you have my point of view. No need to beat him ... As I respect the voters of the FN as people, I respect the permaculturalists. Not their "religion" ...

I am not between "Monsanto" and "Pascal Poot-Bourguignon-Morrison" (it is a mistake to put Bourguignon with the other two! I do not always agree 100% with him, but all the same, he has a remarkable knowledge of soil biology).

I try to understand the elements of a puzzle called a "living system", to assemble them in the right order, without dogma, and to derive a way of managing my vegetable garden with the objective of producing the most. possible of "more than organic" quality, by working as little as possible (these are my objectives, and not a dogma).

Ah, and I share. As I am convinced that I have understood, seen, one or the other thing that may interest others, obviously, sometimes, I am overflowing with convictions (but, by self-mockery, I try to neutralize the "guru "that it could, unbeknownst to me, generate).
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Re: Laziness of the (super) lazy in the 04 (800m)




by Did67 » 02/06/17, 17:26

Ahmed wrote:What is "good" cannot be defined as the inverse symmetrical of "bad", it may not have no report, so taking the opposite of a nonsense often leads to another ...


That's exactly what I meant.
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Re: Laziness of the (super) lazy in the 04 (800m)




by Adrien (ex-nico239) » 03/06/17, 01:18

Ahmed wrote:Nico239, you write:
But I do not understand what you mean by
It is not enough to oppose something "bad" to be in the "good" !
What is "good" cannot be defined as the inverse symmetrical of "bad", it may not have no report, so taking the opposite of a nonsense often leads to another ...


Ok impec thanks
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Re: Laziness of the (super) lazy in the 04 (800m)




by Adrien (ex-nico239) » 03/06/17, 01:45

Did67 wrote:
nico239 wrote:
If we aggregate all this under the name of research there is on one side the "Monsanto" (to summarize) and on the other hand the "Pascal Poot-Bourguignon-Morrison" (to summarize).

Between the two there is us.



Indeed, I am expressing myself there without nuance, because I pity the thousands of people who are "dragged" (with their consent), into something that does not hold water (even if "it works"!) .


In fact I would not have to name names : Lol: because who says "good or bad" says "good or bad" prejudices.

Let's say that there are those "good or bad" who have a "good or bad" practice of 2 or 3 decades of "good or bad" experiences and I mean we must inspire ourselves (or not) and adapt (or not) to our context by experimenting in our turn (or not).

(Context = envy, time to devote, need, philosophy, terrain, geography, climate, financial means ... etc etc etc etc)

Do not stay both feet in the same hoof and be able to constantly question myself being what I prefer.

Amateur I am nonetheless molded by the knowledge "good or bad" gleaned here and there.
Obtu I would have said to my wife: it is not going to ask the plants without burying them ...
But although I remain cautious (prejudices die hard) I already have to start experimenting

Monday we chatted with a lady who worked in her small greenhouse ...
Well what was our surprise to note that we were already "stuck" ah it is you who cultivate with straw .... she is very curious to see us

Yesterday the father-in-law of our neighbor (who gives us his straw in exchange for the pasture) goes up to, supposedly, to watch his cows ... pretext
We tap the discussion and we discover that in fact the gardener is him and it's our way of doing intriguing: tour of the garden, he calls his wife, go hop she goes to see too "how do we do », Calls his daughter who goes up to see finally brief ... the continuation settled at the improvised aperitif

In a valley where all the vegetable gardens are cultivated bare and often watered (the water costs nothing here) one is stunned by the curiosity that one arouses for "a little straw" spread on the ground.

All this to say that whatever our "level" as long as we remain curious about what is different from our practice is rather positive.

To be continued....

A short walk to the garden in the evening: 1ère slug moved away, fortunately no other on the horizon.

And still no answer or feedback on my oak leaves ???
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Re: Laziness of the (super) lazy in the 04 (800m)




by phil53 » 03/06/17, 08:09

My little experience about oak leaves or other is to avoid putting them without adding anything else (hay, mixed wood straw, what we have on hand) or so put very little thick. If not, it forms a crust that interferes with the exchange of soil and water. It's a bit like mowed lawn except that leaves do not ferment, well, I think.
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Re: Laziness of the (super) lazy in the 04 (800m)




by Ahmed » 03/06/17, 08:10

That's right, you asked:
In this regard, question: the oak leaves (decomposition hyper slow) is better in leaves or crushed in "sawdust"?

For a spreading in the fall, the slowness of assimilation is not a problem, moreover the grinding should be limited to the materials which can not or hardly be used as such (one is lazy or one is not ! 8) It is also a significant energy aspect in terms of principles).
It is best to mix the sheets with another material to avoid possible agglomeration in compact plates.
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Re: Laziness of the (super) lazy in the 04 (800m)




by Did67 » 03/06/17, 08:24

Just remember that dead leaves, if that's what we're talking about, are "poor" material. Poorer than straw. The trees, to bud in the spring, put the maximum of soluble, rich substances in the "living wood" (sapwood).

This is what allows them to "build" a significant biomass (their leaves) in a few days, in the spring when they have no leaves.

This is also what makes the richness of the "real BRF" (branches, only made of sapwood, crushed after the leaves have fallen).

So the dead leaf is an "empty shell", cellulosic (parenchyma) and already a little woody (veins).

So yes, if you want to feed your soil organisms well, it is not a "good" material. It is necessary to "complement" with richer materials such as grass clippings.

Yes, I don't like the way they compact and form ... a kind of "cardboard" not very permeable to air.

Now, the beginning organisms of the decomposition chain (some worms, springtails, centipedes ...) seem to like a lot.

I have no specific knowledge of oak leaves. If the oak heartwood is rich in tannins, which are "antibacterial" (used to tan the leather = to preserve a skin which normally would decompose very quickly or "to age", to stabilize the wines) and therefore poses specific problems if you want "boost" the activity of organisms, I do not think, but without having certain data, whether it is the case of leaves ...

I used walnut leaves, which are known to be "toxic". My raspberries, planted in it, produced from the first year.

So I think we can use without much risk.
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