From conviction to approaching reality ...

Agriculture and soil. Pollution control, soil remediation, humus and new agricultural techniques.
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Adrien (ex-nico239)
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Re: From conviction to approaching reality ...




by Adrien (ex-nico239) » 05/09/17, 02:45

As in many subjects apart from the 10 researchers in the world who work daily on these questions all the other OPINIONS including mine are not of great interest.

Rather than opinion or opinion we should speak of belief

The question being in my opinion: do I believe in what is described in this article?
The answer to feeling is yes

But it goes no further.
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Re: From conviction to approaching reality ...




by izentrop » 05/09/17, 09:45

lazzaret wrote:I defended the idea that the pressure of the environment leads to the adaptation of organisms while others defended the idea that it is chance that produces adaptations and that the environment then selects them. These links to illustrate what I thought. For me, the debate is closed.
It is already clearer but the difference is not as clear cut, for plants the two govern evolution.

Sexual (genetic) reproduction means that offspring will have part of the mother's genes and part of those of the father and will all be different.
In addition, an alteration of the DNA of the mother cell can always occur (chemical, ionizing ray, virus).
If the embryo is viable, it is a mutation which in some cases can be beneficial and lead to an evolution, in case it survives an environmental attack.

The epigenetics of plants is much more important than for mammals, already because it cannot escape its environment.
unlike mammals, plants do not undergo any erasure of epigenetic marks during gametogenesis ... germ cells are produced late in development, when the meristem stem cells decide to produce floral organs instead of vegetative organs.

Thus, the epigenetic modifications acquired by the meristem cells in response to the interactions of the plant with its environment have the potential to be transmitted to the germ cells. In addition, the clones resulting from the vegetative multiplication mechanisms in plants can cause disturbances in the mitotically transmissible epigenetic states1.

In mammals, epigenetics are active during the differentiation of stem cells into cells (liver, heart, neuron, etc.)
A mother who is hungry during pregnancy will have a small child.
A chiwawa dog protruding by a large dog will make small ones the size of its placenta.
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Re: From conviction to approaching reality ...




by Grelinette » 05/09/17, 17:10

If I understood the subject correctly, and to summarize it:

- Assumption that a living being (animal, plant, ...) can develop an adaptation to an influence of the environment lived by his ancestors, and this, over several generations

- Assumption that this adaptation can be behavioral AND biological

- Assumption that this adaptation is transmitted by genetic modification following a mutation under the effect of an external event

- Hypothesis that this adaptation is transmitted by a means other than genetic, but other than the simple "learning related to the behavior" (to use the terms of olivier75).

That's right ?...

For me, these 4 adaptation hypotheses (5 with learning) are consistent and compatible.
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Re: From conviction to approaching reality ...




by lazzaret » 05/09/17, 18:36

Grelinette wrote:If I understood the subject correctly, and to summarize it:

- Assumption that a living being (animal, plant, ...) can develop an adaptation to an influence of the environment lived by his ancestors, and this, over several generations


yes, hypothesis that I put forward, but only on plants.

Grelinette wrote:- Assumption that this adaptation can be behavioral AND biological


on plants, behavioral or biological ma appear the same. If you want to mean "innate" and "acquired", that's a good question but it goes a little beyond what was suggested at the beginning of this topic.

Grelinette wrote:- Assumption that this adaptation is transmitted by genetic modification following a mutation under the effect of an external event


it is an "other" question in my opinion. Is the mutation a recurrent (more or less) cyclical internal phenomenon integrated into plants? This would no longer make it quite a coincidence but an evolutionary phenomenon adapted to respond to changes on a larger time scale (on the scale of normal climatic cooling and warming (not caused by man)) . The external event being in my case global warming for example.
this possibility was not advanced in the links which I posted at the beginning of this subject.

Grelinette wrote:- Hypothesis that this adaptation is transmitted by a means other than genetic, but other than the simple "learning related to the behavior" (to use the terms of olivier75).


epigenetic therefore! "learning" which would be linked not to behavior but to environmental pressure.

Grelinette wrote:That's right ?...

For me, these 4 adaptation hypotheses (5 with learning) are consistent and compatible.


attention, learning and adaptation are used in this summary of hypotheses in a somewhat ambiguous manner. Learning suggests a conscious will to ... learn. And plants have no central nervous system. We would therefore be more in learning whatever the hypothesis that you emit.
unless you want to endow plants with consciousness ... If you do that, you will starve the vegan (s) : Mrgreen:
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Re: From conviction to approaching reality ...




by Grelinette » 06/09/17, 12:39

- Assumption that a living being (animal, plant, ...) can develop an adaptation to an influence of the environment lived by his ancestors, and this, over several generations
yes, hypothesis that I put forward, but only on plants.

Whether it is dandelions, fungi, trees or mammals, living things have a lot in common, especially genes, chromosomes, DNA. It is therefore very likely that we find similar and transposable reactions and functions in each of the living species ... But we are moving away from the subject: plants.

- Assumption that this adaptation can be behavioral AND biological
on plants, behavioral or biological ma seem the same. ...

It seems to me that if a plant changes the size of its leaves, the orientation in the sun, or the type of soil in which it will grow, I assimilate this to behavioral. For example, we see that with climate change, vegetation is shifting.

On the other hand, if a plant changes its morphology (following a mutation spontaneous ou caused, cf. the work of INRA), in my biological sense.

Moreover to return to the work of INRA, they consist in modifying the genes of plants to improve certain characteristics (size, taste, shape, appearance, ...), these modifications are made by radioactivity, chemistry, and undoubtedly other unknown methods.
One can imagine that these "tools" for genetic modification also exist in nature and act on plants with a more random and slower effect, for example natural radioactivity.
After, everything and question of the advisability of this new character in the environment, therefore, as the biologist Jacques Monod would have said: "Of chance and of Necessity". (Chance and Necessity)

- Assumption that this adaptation is transmitted by genetic modification following a mutation under the effect of an external event
it is an "other" question in my opinion. Is the mutation a recurrent (more or less) cyclical internal phenomenon integrated into plants? ...

This question is the subject of numerous researches, in particular on human beings as I reported: mutation following a strong emotion.
For plants, there are probably many things to discover ... Besides, there are fun experiences and practices: e.g. play music in a greenhouse or in a vineyard to promote growth and health ... (I have no opinion on these practices ... wait and see).

- Hypothesis that this adaptation is transmitted by a means other than genetic, but other than the simple "learning related to the behavior" (to use the terms of olivier75).
epigenetic therefore! "learning" which would be linked not to behavior but to environmental pressure.

More generally, the plant world seems to be still fairly unknown to us.
This is another subject (communication between plants), but I recently read an article on research to understand how plants, even distant ones, for example trees in the same forest, could transmit information causing reaction: as soon as certain trees are attacked by a destructive parasite, other trees in the same forest suddenly develop a defense against this parasite! ...

When I was young I worked in an experimental nursery and one of the managers told me about a fun and intriguing experience: sensors (magnetic, chemical, ... I don't know) were fixed on the plants in a greenhouse and we managed to measure a reaction of the plant when the gardener who took care of the plants entered the greenhouse! : Shock:
(I don't know if we measured a reaction of joy, sadness or fear!)

Like what, we do not realize it, but when we come home at night, in the same way as his cat, his dog or his canary will express his joy to find you, ... and your plants too! : Cheesy:
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Re: From conviction to approaching reality ...




by Did67 » 06/09/17, 14:06

Grelinette wrote:... but I recently read an article on research to understand how plants, even distant ones, for example trees in the same forest, could transmit information causing a reaction: as soon as certain trees are attacked by a destructive parasite, other trees in the same forest suddenly develop a defense against this parasite! ...



There are two well-documented mechanisms for this:

a) gases

This is the case of acacias, browsed by giraffes, which transmit information to congeners spread under the wind, which modify their composition, become more bitter ... This dates from the 80s.

b) mycorrhizae

It is taken up by Wohlleben, in the "secret of the trees"?

I know the experience in tomatoes, made documented by Chinese teams, which show that a tomato stalk attacked by alternariosis, transmits the info to a neighboring stalk via the mycorrhizae, the fungi associated with the roots in the soil. . The second foot enhances the production of certain enzymes which are involved in defense reactions.
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Re: From conviction to approaching reality ...




by olivier75 » 06/09/17, 20:32

On a subject very close to the communication between plants, the last video of Hervé coves on msv (youtube)
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Re: From conviction to approaching reality ...




by lazzaret » 06/09/17, 20:45

olivier75 wrote:On a subject very close to the communication between plants, the last video of Hervé coves on msv (youtube)
Olivier


I don't know if you wanted to put the link or not but it would be nice if it was there ...
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Re: From conviction to approaching reality ...




by olivier75 » 06/09/17, 23:38

I have not tried it is not simple Ave. The phone, but a moderator can edit my message.
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Re: From conviction to approaching reality ...




by izentrop » 07/09/17, 08:41

Interesting with its limits.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=606fIOwR6t8

More effective than waiting for the effects of nature, a new phyto pathway http://www7.inra.fr/dpenv/pdf/defense_plantes.pdf

Biopesticides as their detractors http://www.isias.lautre.net/IMG/pdf/Le_ ... icides.pdf
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