Cereal crisis: causes and consequences

Agriculture and soil. Pollution control, soil remediation, humus and new agricultural techniques.
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by Mesh » 10/05/08, 22:13

There is one thing I am sure of is that all the elements, air, water, earth have been attacked on a daily basis for far too long, and that this is not getting better, all of this through our unbridled technological race mirage of material happiness.

I also do not want to spit in the soup ... I am very happy to eat my fill and have my little comfort thanks to this technology ... but at what price!

Technology should have respected our environment for a long time, but it is not.
All this for the worst thing that man has invented: the cash!

Do not lament, do not look back ... I would like to, but I cannot do it. : Cry:
What are we going to leave to our children?
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by gegyx » 10/05/08, 23:10

Well, there was the Express, Marianne, that was missing the New Obs, in the charge of Sarko against the press who doesn't like him.
Zealous, go!
:D
---
Remundo wrote: to drag balls in various fields, it balances and it prevents me from taking too much speed.
Your problem, what many of us feel, is your pretension and your arrogance, can be involuntary, when you expose a situation.
Convinced that by your education and your facilities, you can nail your beak, masterfully to any recalcitrant.

You do not realize, when you slip from science, that you expose theories "limits", but especially out of subject, in relation to the exposed thought of the opponent.
We feel that these emotional charges reveal that deep down inside you, many things are not clear.
A little restraint, Mr. infra-terrestrial.

Try, in your turn, to know how to listen to people, and to understand what they feel, but which they can awkwardly express.
Then do not answer conclusively, as if you were following a program.
Question yourself every time, and for the good of all.

----

Ahmed, admirably re-develops his ideas, with a higher vision, and you don't hear him.
(I subscribe fully for all his comments, because this is what I deeply think, but cannot express it as well).

Talking about the return to the candle, or to the caves, does not raise the debate.
Precisely this is the type of arguments used by lobbies, destroyers of the planet.

Do you see technological and industrial progress as normal, and undeniably necessary, when it destroys the soil, a species of the earth, a race, an ethnic or social minority?
You seem to think so, but the height is that you don't even want to think "repentance".

This is an extreme position, which there are not many people to share, because for the most part, they understand it, and undergo it every day.

Amen.
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by Remundo » 10/05/08, 23:12

For Bones,

I understand your concerns. The question you ask is present in everyone's mind and just as legitimate as it is worrying, but I prefer another question,

What are we going donner to our children?

I think we must give them a world where they will have the means to meet the great challenges of the 3rd millennium, in particular that of energy and co-development in third world countries.

The 2 are intimately linked from my point of view.

For Ahmed,

I read your text and thank you for your details. You bring again interesting elements of reflection, as always!

That there are inter-ethnic tensions in certain countries, it is true, as was the case in Europe a short time ago…

Ah yes, that is a real crap that is anchored in the human species in the depths of its genes. This behavior is only found in certain ape cousins, and not yet all. To put it bluntly, "there is something twisted in the hominid lineage".

In Europe, that has calmed down, apart from Kosovo and in Russia Tchetchenie. It seems that the horror and the inconceivable scale of 39-45 with the Holocaust still did not sufficiently mark the spirits ...

Unfortunately, and I think of Africa, hardly a year goes by without a new genocide ...
It would certainly be possible to multiply the examples, but this analysis, like the above, would remain at the level of the phenomenon. To understand reality in depth, you need a little more abstraction and it's very frustrating not to be able to do it here (task too long, too arduous: there are a lot of books on the question with different points of view …).

Yes, proven phenomena, but which I find a little anecdotal (even if it is very serious for those affected!) In front of this puddle of malnutrition, miseries and ignorance of third world people, which was always chronic long before European expansion at home. Moreover, some studies show that the standard of living has dropped since decolonization (beware, here I am making a simple observation, that people do not lend me crazy ideas, thank you in advance !!)

Your mistake is quite revealing of this ideology *, the science and technology that has become self-justifying; in other words, pursuing its own ends by avoiding all criticism. What I assert is that providing new sources of massive and centralized energy (even if cleaner) is to continue on a dead end, energy being on the one hand far from being the only challenge, and on the other hand saying nothing about the use made of it.

Ah, tecnoscience! I pointed out that it was necessary to avoid the savage and villainous uses of science, it is on this that the authors make the trick to speak about "tecnoscience", the most remained among them proposing to stop everything, even to go back ... the same authors with their backs well sunk in a leather sofa, a cup of cold water in their hands, when it is not a question of champagne ...

To sum up, science has become dangerous in the 2th century mainly on XNUMX points:
- in physics: mastering the atom
- in biology: genetic manipulation

2 areas nevertheless bringing great benefits too (abundant energy, gene therapy, etc.) Each time Man finds "a new fire", either he burns himself or he domesticates it and makes a fantastic leap forward.

The problem comes that the fires found by man are now far too advanced in terms of his instinct remained quite primary ...

On energy, precisely the Desertec project is eminently decentralized, and for my part, I would even go further because I prefer decentralization going down to each building, with a few larger power stations ensuring regulation and industrial needs.

Energy in abundance is not synonymous with plundering of the 1/3 world, well, look at this page with regard to our France:
http://sycomoreen.free.fr/syco_francais ... oelec.html

What do we do with energy? Heating, desalination, AGRICULTURE (irrigation ...) solar fuel (including H2, electropositive metals), toasters and computers for Econologie.com :P
just thinks that what is "sold" to us under the label "progress", or now "sustainable development" is not the right "recipe".

It must be said that there are many hypochritical surfers on the wave of sustainable development, watching the ads for gas and heat pumps, it's breathtaking. A non-scientist cannot disentangle the true from the false :|

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by Remundo » 11/05/08, 00:12

But Gegyx puts a layer on it, sacred Gegyx!

I've been itching for a long time to put your "clean" ideas on you, because it's very "clean" from my point of view.

You want me to tell you, me, what "I feel about you", here is a small selection of your attitude drawn exclusively on this subject, even if you have not written everything, you are right in there , and you got me hooked in other topics:
- he loves sausage.
- You reason with the mentality of big c ... (copyright Gegyx)
- FN certified logorrhea (national front because we don't have the courage
to go through with what we write)

- pretentious
- narrowness of mind
- professor with dark glasses
- REMUNDO IS A BUTTERFLY
- write elsewhere, it would make us vacation


and the highlight of the show

"all disrespect and morgue what about this gentleman for the rest of the world. " copyright Christine

WHO IS IRRESPECTANT FOR WHO?
What have these interventions brought to the subject?
I'm asking the question. Any objective person re-reading this subject can see on which side the scale is crushed to explode the scourge.

In addition you take everything for yourself, as if every thing I write relates to your little personal case or serves to proclaim me the king of the world ...
Remundo wrote: to drag balls in various fields, it balances and it prevents me from taking too much speed.

I had just said that I work a lot (context : Idea: ) You did not understand ? Damn, we see that you do not manage any business you then ... Even if my father helps me a lot, you will bump the administrations, the VAT declarations, the INPI, the ANVAR, the ADEME, EDF / GDF to start a business, we will talk about it again, eh Gegyx.

Your problem, what many of us feel, is your pretension and your arrogance, can be involuntary, when you expose a situation.

OUUUAIIIII that's it, there are two of you.

I am not arrogant, I throw arguments which you do not like and which are supported, small nuance ... And here is a forum, it's not the kindergarten where you have to ask permission for any knowingly impactful idea you want to develop : Evil:

You don’t realize when you’re getting out of science that you’re exposing “limit” theories,

Read a little your last posts on Sevran ... Mr. "limit", and then I understood well, not agree with you and Christine, it is "limit" not to say archaic and bastard facho. You have to call a spade a spade reading your "retained" qualifiers
A little restraint, Mr. infra-terrestrial.

Kezaco an infra-terrest? On restraint let me laugh when it comes from you :D

Do you see technological and industrial progress as normal, and undeniably necessary, when it destroys the soil, a species of the earth, a race, an ethnic or social minority?
You seem to think so, but the height is that you don't even want to think "repentance".

You don't destroy everything, my dear. Do not generalize, a little restraint, do not be conclusive : Lol:

Well, plowing destroys the soil and wood, hedgerows, it is well known. The farmers of tomorrow will rest and plow 100 m² for them. Meanwhile, the trees and the forest will grow back. The piti mole rats, the piti birds will nest. And the millions of mouths to feed, and billions (on cereals, we're in the middle of it), do you prefer to put them on a diet?

Too bad for city dwellers, they will pick the macadam. Have you stocked up? Where does the food come from? Does it grow in the supermarket fridge? I can tell you that without the weedkiller and the fertilizer, there are a bunch of them who would not buy diet pills ... yields would be too low. I am not saying that I am delighted, all this poses a problem, but the facts are there and the compromises are to be found, and above all, we must progress technologically to overcome these difficulties, particularly a cleaner and efficient agriculture, in particular in hostile areas

Try, in your turn, to know how to listen to people, and to understand what they feel, but which they can awkwardly express.
Then do not answer conclusively, as if you were following a program.
Question yourself every time, and for the good of all.


I don't think I'm the worst in this area. Besides, while you were writing all very wise advice, I was in the process of responding to Ahmed, whose contributions to the debate I have repeatedly emphasized,

You see, with Ahmed, we don't at all agree, like Martien sometimes. But we talk, we contradict each other, we tickle kindly, we refine, we post links, in short we bring things, and we listen. What I affectionately call shout

My vision is just as high as that of Ahmed. It brings a literary, cultural, social and ethnic approach between North / South relations, I bring for my part a more pragmatic, economic and scientific approach.

with your permission and no hard feelings, Père Fouettard,

from Father Hamp toir (I admit it is good : Lol:)
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by gegyx » 11/05/08, 02:11

Ok, you are incorrigible.

When you explain yourself, why do you insult me ​​systematically?
What never happened to me.

On everything you list on my account, I claim that one line which I explained to myself is too much:
gegyx wrote:
Remundo wrote:And for Gegyx who tells me that I reason like a c ..,

Correct your honor!
Another diversion.
I thought I had expressed myself enough, and even too much, about it ..
I said: "You reason with the mentality of the big c ... (technocrats?) Westerners.",
which is quite different!
So respect the true meaning of the sentences, when possible!
And do not repeat the errors, while I have already explained the above.
:frown:

I deal with this… the function of technocrat and not someone specific. And you in there you reason the same, that's all.
If you do not understand the nuance (question of Law), you are incorrigible because it is 3 times that you tighten the service…

When I say "limits", you think FN ... Another extrapolation. (it could be Stalinist, neoconservative or sub-terrestrial, what do I know? :P ).

I understand very well what you are putting forward, don't be afraid of that, that's why I “dared” to answer you so far.
When you think I'm shocked by "dragging my balls", I'm more shocked by "it saves me from taking too much speed".


After, you do not remember anything, since it is always the same catchphrase of arguments in the short week: "plowing, it destroys the earth ... Must feed the rest of the world", and for that, must destroy "a little bit "The earth irremediably ..
By what right ? Do you take that power for yourself?

Remundo wrote:My vision is just as high as that of Ahmed. It brings a literary, cultural, social and ethnic approach between North / South relations, I bring for my part a more pragmatic, economic and scientific approach.

Here again you deny to Ahmed the right to be pragmatic, economic and scientific, while he does all of this in a profound way.
The difference with you is that he puts himself in the place of the 2 parties before passing judgment.
And if that is not good for one part, the whole system is bad.
Land and humans are not the property of Westerners.
And that’s hard to make you swallow it.

Encorigide Man!
---
If you are so "Busy", to the point of teaching others, apply yourself to doing the important things that you do well, and settle for that, because on the sides, it is the ditch, and you lose your phlegm, the pedals and your time.
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by Ahmed » 11/05/08, 14:12

There are so many advanced arguments that I find it hard to follow! I will try to answer those which seem to me the most important.
For the moment, I want to talk about GMOs because it is Tuesday 13th that the law concerning them will be rediscussed in parliament. A demonstration will take place in Paris and Dijon on this day. That all those who have a stomach and are therefore involved, come to express their refusal of the takeover of multinationals on the autonomy and food sovereignty of the people. The conquest of Europe is important for Monsanto, because it would be for them a symbolic consecration allowing them to establish themselves even more widely in the world.

End of the militant parenthesis! I come back to you Remundo: you disapprove of Monsanto's attitude, considering, it seems to me, that this is an "accident" and that the other firms developing GMOs are doing it for the greater good of humanity. This freshness of soul honors you, but unfortunately, the same causes generating the same effects, all these companies have only one and only concern: profit. What I find criminal in their approach (but not very original) is that these high-level scientists are (at least those who occupy the managerial positions) perfectly aware of the damage they cause and that it is with a perfect cynicism they operate; we can bet that they keep a garden to grow their personal food (they obviously do not believe in the sales pitches they serve us!).

What you have to understand is that GMOs don't work (I'm not talking about health effects here).
I develop :
- Many GMOs “messed up” from the start: tomatoes that grew poorly and with questionable taste. The "golden" rice, a little masterpiece of humanitarian masquerade, was to help reduce vitamin A deficiencies in certain populations. Result, poor yields and a derisory content of vitamin A. There are still other examples ...
- Among the GMOs which are cultivated on large surfaces, none is able to keep its promises over time. The doses of pesticides must be continuously increased as the grass or insects adapt (feed back). New illnesses or unexpected effects occur. Finally, the returns are not what is promised.
- The shortcomings of GMOs, the companies are perfectly aware of this and this is even part of their commercial strategy: to customers who come to complain they will offer a new GMO ...
Despite the colossal benefits garnered, Monsanto and its ilk are colossi with clay feet, everything is based on intense lobbying, the rest is powder in the eyes.

Bon Remundo, another time I will talk to you about organic farming; in the meantime, you should read a book by André POCHON, for example: "The fields of the possible", or others. You should like it, he's a farmer * who discovers and then practices (almost) organic agriculture without knowing it.
In another vein, you must absolutely read René BARJAVEL: he wrote a science fiction work in which he explains his vision of modernity, I don't remember the title anymore but it's in the middle of our debate.
* I call him a peasant and not a farmer to show him my respect.
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by Remundo » 11/05/08, 15:11

Hi Ahmed!

I find there the man of letters and culture that I had perceived throughout your interventions. For my part, I admit my weakness on the literary level ... I have the fault of only reading "scientific-geopolitico-economic" articles

The pursuit of profit is also necessary. A company cannot live without profit, so its employees and progress too ...

Fortunately, not all firms are cynical, even villainous. We can cite many correct firms, but they are not there either to empty their cash to make the feeling, there is by their role and that everyone says it.

In the automotive field, which I know well, manufacturers have made considerable R&D efforts on safety, while they could have a larger margin by selling much simpler cars for a fairly similar price, even if is 20% cheaper. The Chinese have understood this well and are trying the coup on the European market with very expensive models to look of their quality ...

I think we can say that, on average, large groups such as SMEs behave properly, particularly in terms of food. For those who know how to avoid traps (food stuffed with oil, ultra-sweet, flavored and artificially flavored), there are products of excellent nutritional quality, freshness, and even taste (but it is subjective :P )

In short, the bad guys thirsty for profit do not yet have the monopoly to sell us only m ....

otherwise, the corpulence and the size of the French would not progress, just like their lifespan (more than a quarter / year : Shock: ), but there too, we could discuss it for a long time in a contrasting way.

For books, I'm going to look at that, if it talks about peasants, it will fill me :D
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by Ahmed » 12/05/08, 18:31

Sacred Remundo! Thank you for your bouquet of compliments. However, I seem to discern, among its heady scent, some deleterious molecules. Since you admit a fault, I can reveal some of mine to you: a pronounced taste for reading between the lines, lexical peeling, research of the underlying concepts, tracking down the unsaid…
So I bounce on two words: literature and pragmatics that seem to clash in your speech. The first term, which you gratify me, I think you would gladly perceive it as a search for a formal perfection rather decorative and to say a little vain language, where I see linguistic precision and therefore acuity of thought. The importance of good language handling results from the seemingly paradoxical fact that it is much more used to hide than to show: it is the main means of manipulating the other.
I think that in the field of "pragmatics" you feel more at ease, wielding intellectual tools that you have learned to master. What you underestimate is that you constantly appeal to conceptual presuppositions which form the basis of your approach.
These two terms are therefore perfectly complementary and if I stay within the framework of elementary concepts, it is because it takes a good foundation before building a building.
Contrary to the impression that I wanted to give you, I know some technical fields well enough to have witnessed the birth of several products and to have produced one myself, from the prototype, through a production in (small ) series, and finally marketing. I would like to take this opportunity to tell you (I practice off-topic like others off-piste: with relish!) That I have gone through the story of your solar adventures. I would not dwell on the substance, that is to say on the validity of your technical choices, because it is secondary to me. The important thing is to know what means you have and what strategy you intend to implement to have your product manufactured and sold. I know very well the difficulties and the joys of technical development, but to sell it is practically only knowledge of the market (in the broad sense) that counts. I saw two companies set up by pros who did not know these rules and who "picked up" quickly, well done: their failure was perfectly predictable since they did not anticipate the reactions of other traders. I'm not saying this to discourage you but to warn you.
Say so, this brings us back to Monsanto and the like… a questionable product but “oiled” marketing!
Well, I would still have to answer you about profit, but since I don't trade in answers, but only in questions * and to be pleasant to you I will tell you a little non-literary story:
The sun and the moon have the same apparent diameter, they are both stars, so I can write the following formula: sun = moon.
* The questions are much more interesting AMHA.
PS: please Remundo, I can't insert a signature at the bottom of the post, help me!
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by Remundo » 12/05/08, 20:23

Hi Ahmed,

Well i learn more about you 8)

On the opposition between pragmatism and literature, it was Gegyx who instilled it. I never let that appear in my writing which reflected the complementarity of our ways of thinking and in no case their opposition.

This cannot even be opposed since they are of a totally different nature. A bit like comparing courage and technology : Shock:

I said that I was pragmatic because I consider myself to be enormously on this subject, without dwelling on the philosophical considerations of North / South relations and the West allegedly despotic and harmful in every way.

I was dezinced to whom better better and only my pugnacious character allowed me to continue because I felt that there was still one who was courteous on the subject.

To show you a pragmatic picture, here is a document from Desertec:
Image
Source: https://www.econologie.com/l-energie-des ... -3814.html

Without wanting to go too far into the technique, the PHRSD concept would make it possible to divide these surfaces again by 2.

I believe that such a simple image fixes ideas well and advantageously replaces long tirades, certainly very interesting, but which have the disadvantage of going around in circles and not getting to the point.

Ahmed wrote:What you underestimate is that you constantly appeal to the conceptual presuppositions that form the basis of your approach.


In everything I've developed here, these are not conceptual presuppositions, but on the one hand of proven facts on the agricultural and social level of third world countries, and other parts of technical realities already mastered.

We can again accuse all of this (or myself) of technoscience with "deleterious" stimuli (in reality neo-colonialists),
It is exactly the opposite, it is called CO-DEVELOPMENT.

it does not prevent that for my part, my conviction is made, and that it is neither political, nor socioethnic, but pragmatic for the Man in the most general and noble sense of the term.


Now, everyone is free to develop their arguments, of course ... The whole philosophical approach is very good, but, in my opinion, comes second in front of the urgency of health and ecological situations around the world.

Thank you for your advice and warning about the strategy of SMEs, but do not worry about the governance of SYCOMOREEN :D

I look forward to thoughts on profit 8)

Best regards, Ahmed!

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by Christophe » 12/05/08, 20:29

It's really distressing (for the "system") the comparison in picture ...

Good with line losses would have to double the surface (if not taken into account in their calculations) but hey ... I chippote :D
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