A vegetable meadow?

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izentrop
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Re: A vegetable meadow?




by izentrop » 23/05/18, 09:04

to be chafoin wrote:Why not a legume?
It is discussed
Legumes do not a priori belong to Intermediate Nitrate Trap Crops (CIPAN). Indeed, because of their ability to transform nitrogen from the air into organic nitrogen in the soil when they are destroyed, they introduce nitrogen into the agricultural plot since they are not harvested ...
However, legumes are generally good precedents and they allow nitrogen fertilizer savings on the following crops. Some results also show that legumes (peas, alfalfa) can absorb mineral nitrogen from the soil if it is present. These beneficial effects cause interest in these species, even in the case of environmental cover. https://agriculture-de-conservation.com ... e-a-l.html
I think that one cannot compare phenoculture to plowed land as soon as the wheat is harvested after forcing with ammonitrates. There is a world between the two.
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Re: A vegetable meadow?




by Did67 » 23/05/18, 09:34

to be chafoin wrote:Okay, but there is nitrification in the spring when the soil warms up, nitrification which plants can benefit from ... if there is any. I ask myself the question of flower beds covered by hay awaiting a crop for which it is not yet the planting or sowing season. If I understand correctly, this nitrification is less or not polluting because then the rains are less abundant and there is little risk of leaching?


Here.

In fact, there is very little nitrification, because bacteria are very cautious. Man didn't invent the "fridge" for nothing!

There are so few that the plants "drag their feet", whereas with "chemical" or "composting" gardeners, things go much faster!

This is of course variable depending on the climate, but very quickly, around April / May, when it starts to nitrify, the balance, in terms of precipitation stabilizes: if it rains, it compensates for what has evaporated. The great period of percolations has passed ...

Very quickly too, and we do not know it enough, the roots of plants will fetch water and minerals at 1, even 2 meters deep (for completely banal plants) ...

So the risk of spring is, if it exists, quite minimal.

Contrary to autumn, when it is a deluge of nitrates which occurs with the return of the rains ... If there are no plants in space, all this will be washed away by winter precipitation, those that recharge the water tables!
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Re: A vegetable meadow?




by to be chafoin » 23/05/18, 19:31

izentrop wrote:I think that one cannot compare phenoculture to plowed land as soon as the wheat is harvested after forcing with ammonitrates. There is a world between the two.


Yes the thick hay probably doesn't fertilize as much. I still remember not to leave a hay blanket without cultivation on the ground in winter.

Without simply focusing on the contribution (beneficial or excessive) of nitrogen, we can hope for other beneficial effects of green fertilizers: for example attraction and development of aerial fauna, unpacking of clay soil ...
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Re: A vegetable meadow?




by Did67 » 23/05/18, 19:44

1) Think again: in total contributions, it is important. But that's not all in immediately soluble mineral form. It goes through living organisms. Never forget this equation: hay is 85% dry matter (DM). With a C / N ratio of 20 to 30. Against a C / N of 15 for compost or ripe manure, but 50 to 70% fleet!

2) Winter is not a problem, since bacteria are in the fridge. It is the months of September to November; with soils that become wet again (bacteria need water; a dry sausage can be preserved, or the meat of grisons!) and which, under cover, remain hot longer longer ...

The living system of our climates has become used to winter rains: bacteria in the fridge, poor materials lying around (dead leaves, stubble) ... All of this is consistent.
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Re: A vegetable meadow?




by to be chafoin » 23/05/18, 20:41

What is it ?
2018-05-22 18.38.43.jpg

The work of a bad or a good lazy gardener who ignores himself?

The photo was taken in the meadow adjoining my vegetable garden maintained as I said to the mower by the owner. We see a small pile of mulch that I did not turn over to dry in hay. I imagine that this practice more or less maintains the meadow, since the grass will decompose and "self-fertilize" in a way ... It would therefore be a good gardener.

Yet we see many mosses in this meadow: is it not rather that the grass is in a bad situation?
The part of the mulch that is not in contact with the air and the sun has collected, like a little, a small pile of grass which can create a local blockage of gas exchange, right? Is the development of moss due to the fermentation of the mulch, combined with the "weed blocking" effect which prevents the grassy parts under the hay from benefiting from photosynthesis? Or standing water?
I do not know if the owners who want impeccable lawn remove their mowing waste to dry it, but if it is the case you could say that he is a bad gardener.
2018-05-22 18.42.32.jpg

But perhaps it is rather an example of a positive symbiosis between two organisms which benefit from photosynthesis in two different ways. Flawless grass is a kind of intensive monoculture and a good gardener will rather seek, in my opinion, diversity to favor eco-systems.

In any case I ask myself these questions because I saw mosses still green under the hay that I had placed directly on the meadow for my lazy pdt, the grass is dead but not the moss probably because of the moisture that remains on the soil surface.
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Re: A vegetable meadow?




by to be chafoin » 23/05/18, 20:47

Did67 wrote: It goes through living organisms.


Do they not then "hold" the minerals? ..
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Re: A vegetable meadow?




by to be chafoin » 23/05/18, 23:49

Ok doc!
In fact, even if my terms are perhaps not very precise, a living soil must retain mineral fertilizers better than a soil of conventional agriculture reduced to a dead support of culture since the organisms of the soil absorb a part of nitrogen. For example :

    bacteria and fungi must store this nitrogen,
      anecic worms can descend into the ground at 2,3m or more and go up through their digestive system mineral substances that they eject to the surface, moreover they must surely also "synthesize" nitrogen in their cells (?) .

      A lifeless soil will not be able to benefit from this mobilization, from this underground nitrogen "turbulation". Synthetic fertilizers need to be properly dosed (and I think they are for economic reasons) on these soils because anything that is not taken up directly by the roots of the plants will certainly be leached out as it passes through the root zone of the soil. .

      On the other hand in a living soil, the nitrogen passed in the organisms and microorganisms will be released again in the soil at the death (inevitable!) Of these organisms. At that time, if there is no culture to synthesize the mineral substances and we are in the idle season of the living (bacteria in the fridge, worms on pause, bad conditions for the development of fungi ... ) then there will be more or less rapid leaching of nitrates depending on the rains and the type of soil.

      On the other hand, you speak from September to November, but at that time the worms get back to work after the summer break I believe, and everyone knows the good times for mushrooms!
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      Re: A vegetable meadow?




      by to be chafoin » 24/05/18, 20:54

      Did67 wrote: [I happened to come across a bag of potting soil, one of the few which in its analyzes shows the rate of DM: 30%! I was very generous with my 50% !!!]


      the figures announced on 4 different bags:
      "compost for the soil" -first price- (vegetable bark and vegetable matter): mat. dry / raw 35% organic mat / dry 50%
      Large brand organic "universal soil" (with NFU fertilizer): mat. dry / raw 40% organic mat / dry 55%
      Large brand organic "horticultural soil" (with organic fertilizer): mat. dry / raw 45% organic mat / dry 65%
      "earth to be planted" Or Brun -cher- (without fertilizer): mat. dry / raw 55% mat. organic / sec 20%
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      Re: A vegetable meadow?




      by to be chafoin » 25/05/18, 11:08

      Did67 wrote:
      Julienmos wrote:But to be convinced of the "poverty" of composts, relative all the same, just remember that what is generally sold in bags as "universal soil" is the product of the composting of our green waste on composting platforms. It is of course richer than cardboard, sawdust or straw!

      At the horticulturalists, with the tables with tide, they bring fertilization with water. Their plants are beautiful, dark green.

      At home, without that, the plants are ... puny and yellow! If you want, I can take photos of you. But you surely all knew that!


      Yes, but how can we properly grow our plants in pots? ... without fertilizer?

      Likewise in planting in the ground, before I used to put a lot of these potting mixes without really seeing a correct establishment of the plants. Little by little, I reduced the quantity of these potting mixes which are expensive and / or of poor quality and the establishment does not seem to me any more complicated for the plants (is it anyway better, thanks to that? I don't know not..).
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      Re: A vegetable meadow?




      by to be chafoin » 27/05/18, 12:00

      To continue the observations on compost, potting soil ...
      I have in front of my house a composting area with 2 areas side by side:

      1) a classic plastic composter in which I traditionally recycle some of my food and garden waste
      2) composting in a heap on which I deposit the cuttings of plants, wood, etc. with the maintenance of my garden.

      While looking for soil for my plants, I compared the 2 soils collected under the heaps:
      2018-05-27 10.56.59.jpg

      the soil coming from 2) (on the right) seems much closer to a good sowing soil, drier, lumpy and perhaps more mineralized (the small white grains I think)

      It may depend on the composting technique (which I manage little it is true), but it may be a pictorial reproduction of the soil of organic gardens (with the addition of compost, mass manure and mulch = 1) and that of phenoculture gardens (with mass hay = 2).
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