A vegetable meadow?

[Did67]

When it comes to hay, does it still contain a high percentage of fiber, more than in compost?

household waste, it must be a bit like lawn mowing, right? (water content, nitrogen content, fiber poverty ...)

1) No. "Compost" is a lot of "intermediate organic matter". Under the microscope, they are still fibers. Seriously damaged. Partly dismantled, of course. But it's still big molecules, being broken down.

This is the famous debate about what humus is (which I dealt with in my book).

Of course, it depends on "which compost". Between fresh compost, ripe compost, overripe compost, it varies ...

But to be convinced of the "poverty" of composts, relative all the same, just remember that what is generally sold in bags as "universal soil" is the product of the composting of our green waste on composting platforms. It is of course richer than cardboard, sawdust or straw!

At the horticulturalists, with the tables with tide, they bring fertilization with water. Their plants are beautiful, dark green.

At home, without that, the plants are ... puny and yellow! If you want, I can take photos of you. But you surely all knew that!

NB: Many of these "potting soil" are also enriched with fertilizers (read the labels on the back, and you will have trouble finding any without!).

CQFD! I know, a collapsing myth!

2) More or less. It obviously depends on what you put in it.

[Julienmos]

NB: Many of these "potting soil" are also enriched with fertilizers (read the labels on the back, and you will be hard pressed to find any without!)

yes, and this is why my radishes for example, as they do poorly in the soil of my garden, I still hesitate to sow them in garden soil used pure, because I fear that this enrichment in fertilizer which you speak, will cause too high a nitrate content in the radishes obtained! ???

[Julienmos]

When it comes to hay, does it still contain a high percentage of fiber, more than in compost?

1) No. "Compost" is a lot of "intermediate organic matter". Under the microscope, they are still fibers. Seriously damaged. Partly dismantled, of course. But it's still big molecules, being broken down.

Of course, I forgot to think about it again ... since like woody, fibrous is the slowest to be degraded, it is therefore normal that there is a lot left in the compost.

Compost is often added when planting gourmet vegetables such as pumpkins, tomatoes ... in the belief that perhaps a "boost" effect is being obtained, but therefore it would be rather the opposite, namely a slow action, a gradual release of nutrients.

[Did67]

There too, let us qualify: it is always a contribution.

Clearly, the humification process is so complex that it is difficult to navigate - myself included:

a) the C / N ratio of a compost is close to 15: even if there are still a lot of fibers being broken down, which cannot be assimilated to humic substances strictly speaking, the nitrogen seems to have been "provisioned" during the decomposition of richer, more fermentable materials ... So even if there are still fibers, c 'is balanced (and even a little better than hay, from this point of view)

b) even if it is not as rich as it is generally thought, to the point that it is supplemented with fertilizers, it is nevertheless a "net" contribution to the soil reserve. So it fertilizes. There is no discussion there. More than straw. More than cardboard. But less than hay (for the same weight transported). In short, all you have to do is cart enough tons and you're done. Not for a lazy person!

c) There is everything in the compost: things already completely decomposed, the parts initially said to be "green" - so some ready-made minerals, giving an immediate effect. Others in the process of decomposition, which will be mineralized or completely humified, more or less quickly. It is therefore an amendment which also has a progressive fertilizing effect, as it is transformed, for approximately 70 to 75% of the DM. About 25 to 30% of the dry matter will give humic substances. Or a little ten% compared to the fresh material, that which we carry (the compost therefore, not the initial waste) [I happened to come across a bag of soil, one of the few which in its analyzes displays the MS rate: 30%! I was very generous with my 50% !!!]

[Julienmos]

b) even if it is not as rich as it is generally thought, to the point that it is supplemented with fertilizers, it is nevertheless a "net" contribution to the soil reserve. . So it fertilizes. There is no discussion there. More than straw. More than cardboard. But less than hay (for the same weight transported).

less than hay ... but still faster than hay, which is not yet broken down at all, or only very partially, at the soil-hay interface?

[Did67]

Yes, absolutely. For those who want to compost, it can also be good to put it under the hay, as "starter organic matter", more rapidly mineralized / nitrified than hay, and therefore to limit the "ignition delay" ...

[to be chafoin]

The fact remains that putting it on immediately poses problems. Beginning in the same year of decomposition, with two consequences: "disappearance" of hay which will be lacking and beginning of mineralization which can go as far as nitrification. Suddenly, our "natural" garden can become "polluting": a shame!

So I left too quickly! For the disappearance of hay: I can remedy this by gradually adding hay since I have rab. The potential laziness takes a hit but good! Besides thank you for the idea of ​​the grinding wheel, I'm trying to assemble a pile. However, I will have less fiber and therefore less humidification ...

The problem of mineralization is a problem if and only if there is no plant that absorbs nitrogen.
I think I left the hay uncultivated for a maximum of maybe 6 weeks on certain beds, is this sufficient for leaching of nitrates, given the protection by the thickness of the cover. I could have planted immediately after setting the cover (?) But it was too early. If I believe izentrop my type of clay soil must have helped to conserve nitrogen ...
If we are in relatively narrow flowerbeds like I am, don't the grassy paths "fix" this nitrogen? For those who have rollers, perhaps it is possible to leave holes in the cover?

[Did67]

No, no, it's not there! At the end of winter, the bacteria are frozen !!!

The problem may arise in the fall. All that hay in place. The warm soil, which stays under the hay. The returning humidity. Nitrification explodes if there are no more vegetables. And the autumn rains / winter precipitation will pass over it and it will be the big rinse !!!

For this reason, I do not recharge after cultivation. I leave the "weeds" (except the bitter ones) and possibly, if necessary, I add green manures (not legumes). And I pass the hay roll between mid-January and mid-February, when the bacteria go nuts in the freezer ...

[to be chafoin]

Okay, but there is nitrification in the spring when the soil warms up, nitrification which plants can benefit from ... if there is any. I ask myself the question of flower beds covered by hay awaiting a crop for which it is not yet the planting or sowing season. If I understand correctly, this nitrification is less or not polluting because then the rains are less abundant and there is little risk of leaching?

[to be chafoin]

Why not a legume?

Here are 3 or even 4 potential living green manures that I have left on my land. We could consider them as cultivated mini-meadows, right?

of beans
(sown in October and therefore already harvested)

mustard (sown this spring)

a rye / vetch mixture (sown in the fall)
and nigella (right, spontaneous sowing)

The question: what is the most judicious use of these plants for the vegetable part?
If I'm still, I see 2 clearly different strategies:

1) I want to fertilize my soil "quickly" with younger, nitrogenous matter which will benefit almost directly my crops and the best is then to cut this flora immediately to put it on the ground where it grew then to plant or sow (after x weeks?) or on a hay cover on another plot (even already cultivated).

2) I want to fertilize my soil in the longer term and promote its humification, its structure so I wait as late as possible so that the plants are strengthened in cellulose and dry matter. Then maybe I can follow the same end of process as for optic 1.

Knowing that apparently my hay covers were made from relatively young herbs (earing stage), I can perhaps complete my fiber covers by opting for solution 2. The question then remains: until when to wait ?

What do you think ?