Permaculture and phenoculture for beginners

Agriculture and soil. Pollution control, soil remediation, humus and new agricultural techniques.
Chris of corsica
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Re: Permaculture and phenoculture for beginners




by Chris of corsica » 16/07/17, 23:50

bjr
I saw in a video that for the compost or for a surface cover of the soil, it is well approached 1 for the nitrogen and 30 for the carbon (((1 on 30)))
who can tell me what he weighs ?????
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Re: Permaculture and phenoculture for beginners




by Did67 » 17/07/17, 11:18

I say 1 instead for 20 ...

But it is absolutely useless to get bogged down in a battle of numbers, since nobody, absolutely nobody knows the contents or the C / N ratios of its biomasses. The tables are to be taken as orders of magnitude - nothing more!

It's like saying that the average speed on French roads is 63 km / h!

Straw, for which we will give for example 80, it can be 50 for a young oat straw or 150 for an old wheat straw ...

Nature is not standardized!

Why 1 on 20 or 1 on 30 (since we will consider that it is almost kif kif in practice) ???

The biomass you bring is:

- the energy of your organisms

- the nutrients from which they build their body (multiplying)

- the raw material with which they synthesize humic substances

Humic substances and living organisms have a C / N ratio of about 15. So if the biomass brings more C and less nitrogen, the organisms will borrow N from the soil, to incorporate it into their bodies, and into humic substances ...

But they also need energy: like you or me, they "burn" "sugars" (carbonaceous substances - there is also O and H, which we do not care) ... So we have to a little more C in the initial substance, which will serve as energy ...

So we start with a C / N of 20 or 30, 5 to 15 "go" in smoke (used as energy), the rest is stored in biomass and in humic substances.

This is why, while the "ideal" C / N is 15, it is necessary to start from 20 to 30 (thirty seems to me all the same a lot, but this is only my opinion; in any case, even with 30, the potential depressive effect would be negligible and would go unnoticed - never forget that the soil is a hell of a buffer, that nature is not mathematical and that living things are capricious!)
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Chris of corsica
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Re: Permaculture and phenoculture for beginners




by Chris of corsica » 17/07/17, 16:28

Did67 wrote:I say 1 instead for 20 ...

But it is absolutely useless to get bogged down in a battle of numbers, since nobody, absolutely nobody knows the contents or the C / N ratios of its biomasses. The tables are to be taken as orders of magnitude - nothing more!

It's like saying that the average speed on French roads is 63 km / h!

Straw, for which we will give for example 80, it can be 50 for a young oat straw or 150 for an old wheat straw ...

Nature is not standardized!

Why 1 on 20 or 1 on 30 (since we will consider that it is almost kif kif in practice) ???

The biomass you bring is:

- the energy of your organisms

- the nutrients from which they build their body (multiplying)

- the raw material with which they synthesize humic substances

Humic substances and living organisms have a C / N ratio of about 15. So if the biomass brings more C and less nitrogen, the organisms will borrow N from the soil, to incorporate it into their bodies, and into humic substances ...

But they also need energy: like you or me, they "burn" "sugars" (carbonaceous substances - there is also O and H, which we do not care) ... So we have to a little more C in the initial substance, which will serve as energy ...

So we start with a C / N of 20 or 30, 5 to 15 "go" in smoke (used as energy), the rest is stored in biomass and in humic substances.

This is why, while the "ideal" C / N is 15, it is necessary to start from 20 to 30 (thirty seems to me all the same a lot, but this is only my opinion; in any case, even with 30, the potential depressive effect would be negligible and would go unnoticed - never forget that the soil is a hell of a buffer, that nature is not mathematical and that living things are capricious!)

as I want to understand your Rapunzel (((C = carbon)) and ((N = Nitrogen))
c properties here
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Re: Permaculture and phenoculture for beginners




by Ahmed » 17/07/17, 21:24

Absolutely! C = carbon, N = nitrogen or nitrogen ... (In fact, it is not compared to English, but according to the symbols of the table of elements ...).
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Re: Permaculture and phenoculture for beginners




by Did67 » 18/07/17, 08:49

I can complete you: nitrogen was also the "old" name for nitrogen, before we (Lavoisier?) Called it "a-zote" = which does not allow life ... While "nitrogen" was derived from its ability to make nitric nitrogen, nitrates ...

The English kept the "nitrogen" ...
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Chris of corsica
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Re: Permaculture and phenoculture for beginners




by Chris of corsica » 18/07/17, 22:51

Did67 wrote:I can complete you: nitrogen was also the "old" name for nitrogen, before we (Lavoisier?) Called it "a-zote" = which does not allow life ... While "nitrogen" was derived from its ability to make nitric nitrogen, nitrates ...

The English kept the "nitrogen" ...


on the la, I always have basic questions, and the other is dsl
I am it legumes captures the nitrogen in haire to return it to the soil, (((that takes the legume on the ground ??)))
for carbon: what are they and the family or types of plants that capture it in the hay ??? ((what do they take from the ground?))
I also have in mind to provide as much as possible, a winter garden type maches or others for if possible brought what a ground more for the suite ,,,)

I love learning and passing on to others and here I can only learn, despite having worked in the gardens for the chicken
to transmit c rather in other domains ,,,,,,,,,,,; )

the sentence is; all knowledge that is not transmitted, is one and crazy to die !!!
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Re: Permaculture and phenoculture for beginners




by Ahmed » 18/07/17, 23:11

Did has already answered those questions, but it's somewhere in the mass of forum...
The food of the plants, it is mainly the carbon of the air (the nitrogen is also captured directly by the legumes (now named Fabaceae) which do it thanks to their association with bacteria). What is extracted from the soil are the minerals (the famous trio NPK * and the trace elements), as well as the water that is the solvent for these minerals.

* Nitrogen, phosphorus and potassium.
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Re: Permaculture and phenoculture for beginners




by sicetaitsimple » 18/07/17, 23:40

Did67 wrote:This is why, while the "ideal" C / N is 15, it is necessary to start from 20 to 30 (thirty seems to me all the same a lot, but this is only my opinion; in any case, even with 30, the potential depressive effect would be negligible and would go unnoticed - never forget that the soil is a hell of a buffer, that nature is not mathematical and that living things are capricious!)


Certainly yes.

But according to the characteristics and the initial state of the soil, according to the season to which one spreads, the temperature, the humidity at this period and the months that follow, the preceding and following culture, the zero or moderate tillage, and especially the quantity spread, all this must be relativised.

The "BSP" (popular common sense) often says that for a human one should eat "a bit of everything". I think that in the majority of cases (except proven defect) this is also valid for a floor and its occupants. In short, if there is biomass available and whatever its C / N, in my opinion it should be used, but in moderation!
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Re: Permaculture and phenoculture for beginners




by Did67 » 19/07/17, 22:05

To qualify. "Eat everything": of course! But "balanced" all the same. And the C / N is the main balance, it is a little "carbohydrate / protein" in our diet ... No matter what food ... pasta or potatoes / meat or soy or lentils ...;

Then everything works. Everything breaks down. Simply more or less quickly. And by "borrowing" more or less nitrogen from the soil ...

Where you are right is that each time you have to think about a strategy:

- I want to optimize the symbiotic fixation, so I will "exhaust" the soil in nitrogen by materials with high C / N; then the legumes that I would put will optimize this symbiotic fixation; it can be clever!

- I want to put a big greedy, type potato; there, it would be better to put a C / N 20 so that it decomposes quickly enough to feed them, but not too fast to cover (I also want to avoid butter) ...

Etc., etc
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Re: Permaculture and phenoculture for beginners




by sicetaitsimple » 19/07/17, 22:36

Did67 wrote:
- I want to put a big greedy, type potato; there, it would be better to put a C / N 20 so that it decomposes quickly enough to feed them, but not too fast to cover (I also want to avoid butter) ...


One of the questions that I ask myself (at this stage of acquiring knowledge), is it really the deposit of fresh organic matter (hay, leaves, ...) on the surface,without any incorporation, does it really have a noticeable influence in the short term (the time of a crop) in terms of nitrogen hunger or, on the contrary, of nitrogen inputs or even other elements?
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