How to find a land

[brinbrin62]

Hmm ... It does indeed seem difficult to me to conciliate market gardening and (good) laziness. I read Daverne and Moreau (I have it in PDF, if anyone is interested) and without going back to the 14th century (6h per day, 1d 2/2 per week), it seems to me that the profitability of a small farm will have to rely on "non-lazy" techniques for certain crops, on greenhouses in particular. After that, this leaves 3/XNUMX of the surface in pheno, MSV, etc.

I often talk about Fortier, because I like his paragmatism and his way of accounting for costs and returns. The fact also that he developed HIS method, and that he sticks to it. But I don't see myself rolling out plastic sheeting all year long.

For hidden costs, yes, I had been told about this outbreak on cash registers and scales. The next generation of cases will be connected to the internet to be able to pay by credit card, or even the smartphone. This is part of the big project to abolish the euro cash. The illuminati reptilians who control us rub their hands ... their legs ... things, what.

Exactly, the Carrefour Group will cut 2400 jobs, cut some supermarkets and create a lot full of organic supermarkets. I think they will indeed have no worries on the price side of cash registers and scales.

Going through an AMAP is obvious, but I don't think we can do without direct selling.

Regarding the transformation, it is indeed necessary to equip a laboratory. The integration association (organic market gardening) in which I spent a year is equipped. I remember an oven at 3000 euros. It is expensive stainless steel. But hey, it's the general council that pays to buy social peace, so that's fine.

It is understood that selling black is * completely * out of the question.

[brinbrin62]

Ahmed on page 5: [quote] As Antoche rightly says a little above, we live in a civilization oriented towards the tertiary sector (at least in the West), therefore overvaluing this sector; it is therefore structurally difficult to make a living from market gardening production which is dependent on many hazards and on the competition of many producers who may very well be at odds with each other, in more favorable economic and climatic conditions ... [/ quote]

Yes for now. But if oil becomes scarce, its price will increase, and import / export costs will also increase. [glow = red] It's hard to bet on that [/ glow], but I don't think the situation in our modern societies will really improve. Wealthier and richer and fewer and fewer. The poor who are getting poorer and more and more numerous. An unraveling middle class. Market gardening (and small livestock, etc.), because it produces part of the essential (to eat) also allows to recreate local fabric and solidarity.

As for organic which comes from very far, hum ...

[Ahmed]

Yes, globalization does indeed require low cost transport and if / when the price of oil goes up the current "good equilibrium" will be upset and the whole edifice will collapse ...
As for the industrial and exotic "organic", it exists, generates profits and that is what counts, even if it is an ephemeral model.

When you talk about social fabric and solidarity, I agree with you, but the cornerstone of a business remains profitability and your accountant will not take into account your positive qualitative externalities. From a post-collapse perspective, market gardening and gardening would again become key sectors, but it is difficult to establish a provisional timetable in this regard, or even precisely the possible effects ...

[Did67]

I have nothing against solidarity, nor against the social fabric ...

However, the question of feeding a given population (quite large now) goes through a swear word called productivity! In other words, by two fairly simple concepts:

a) How many people who devote themselves to it full time can feed people? It is the productivity of labor.

b) How many people can we feed from one hectare of land? It is productivity per unit area.

We can be very productive and supportive. Or not. And we can be very united and not very productive (often moreover, "solidarity" badly conceals a crass lack of productivity). Or not. Some offer to come and help me, but I decline: I don't have much for them to do!

Alas, so-called intensive agriculture, which uses fossil fuels and thanks to the fact that externalities are not taken into account (collateral damage - on the environment; health effects ...), has placed the bar very high. It manages to feed a huge population at low cost. Suddenly, the Iphone are blooming ... This very high productivity means that alternative models are not easy to develop ...

No doubt we will have to be much more numerous to devote ourselves to agriculture when the price of petroleum products has tripled! AND will there be fewer people on low-cost planes.

[Did67]

Exactly, the Carrefour Group will cut 2400 jobs, cut some supermarkets and create a lot full of organic supermarkets.

I wrote it a few months ago: supermarkets, contrary to popular belief, have a very low margin. The only "sector" of a hyper which is still growing (sometimes in double digits) and high profitability are the "organic" departments. So it makes sense.

"Organic" is not a paradigm shift. It is the same way of producing with other means. No wonder he ended up being snapped up by large retailers ... Even if multiple initiatives (producer stores, for example; alternative chains) are contributing to a certain resistance.

In the same vein, I do not remember which chain of "organic" stores (Vie bio ???) was recently acquired by Casino.

Consumers are rushing to organic ... So the big brands are doing the same! Their logic is to take advantage of what the consumer buys!

[Ahmed]

Did, add a c) What profitability for a given productivity?
The agricultural sector which had been asked (post-war) for an escalation of productivity was exhausted to produce more and more with prices less and less remunerative. The good question is therefore also at what price does society value quality food products, as I said above, other products or services are overvalued compared to basic but vital products.

[guibnd]

It is understood that selling black is * completely * out of the question.

not even black radishes your honesty honors you

[chatelot16]

why are we only talking about producer productivity?

we should consider the productivity of society as a whole, not just the gardener ... if the gardener conscientiously pays his taxes and social charges, he feeds a lot of people whose productivity we are not trying to improve

the poor gardener or other agricultural or industrial producer must therefore increase his productivity to pay for the non-productivity of the whole of society, which not only does not improve but invents compulsory fees new

when the poor producer cannot improve his productivity more he has only 2 means, cheating by not declaring all his production, reducing the quality

result of this excessive pressure: everyone has to cheat a little to survive ... so nobody wants to give their figures to serve as a model for new ones ... the worst is that even the one who does not cheat wants to keep his secret account, because even the one who does not deliberately cheat is afraid that we will find errors which for the administration are punished as seriously as fraud

absurdity of current society, a good gardener who is only a very good gardener has no chance of succeeding alone ... a good crawler is much more likely to succeed, if he is not competent enough in gardening he is easy to hire a gardener by paying him at minimum price

conversely, the good gardener will have a hard time hiring the right one to do what he does not know how to do ... when it is necessary to have the service of an accountant or a banker he takes the high price

is there a solution to get out of this impasse?

there are a lot of people who want good quality food and who are ready to pay the price ... the producers are in trouble because the current social system completely disadvantages them

people who want good food must invent an institution that directly favors small producers, allowing them to earn a living by doing the gardening they know how to do and relieving them of administrative work, by financing the good investments better that the banks

a gardener finds it difficult to buy land ... an institution made up of a large number of future clients could easily buy what is needed

this idea of ​​creating a company whose customers are part of partners is not only useful for market gardening: it is useful for all activities where customers do not find what they want in the current system

[Ahmed]

What you describe, Chatelot, corresponds exactly to the opposition between creation of abstract value (which only marginally takes into account the usefulness of what is produced, since it is not its objective) and creation of a utility intended to satisfy a need, regardless of the abstract value that may be attached to it ...

[lilian07]

I, on the contrary, think that we should always compare ourselves to the economic model in an alternative model. this is what allows us to innovate and find models that are sometimes superior to the economic model which is by definition already optimized. I take the example of the well-known model of self-consumption by photovoltaic panel where the model that I have largely studied the solar thermal panel. today there are DIY self-built models that are superior to electricity or heating produced by coal or produced by nuclear. So watchword develop alternative models yes but never stray from the reality of prices which carry an optimized and efficient model.