Cuba, an island in 80% in organic fruit and vegetable production.

Agriculture and soil. Pollution control, soil remediation, humus and new agricultural techniques.
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Re: Cuba, an organic island at 80% in fruit and vegetable production.




by izentrop » 03/02/17, 21:49

Ahmed wrote: the machine cannot generate profit: it is content to gradually consume its value (which is reified human labor) and integrate it into the goods it produces. This statement may surprise: why should a company invest in this way if automation does not generate value, instead of the worker? Quite simply, this lowers the unit value but increases the overall abstract value, since the volume produced increases; this last point (volume) being relevant only because this increased productivity disqualifies competition ...
Is that so ! robots do not create wealth?
This is not the opinion of Holland, nor of Hamon who wants to tax them http://www.lepoint.fr/politique/quand-h ... 867_20.php

Robots take care of thankless and repetitive tasks. Man can therefore devote himself to more rewarding tasks. The problem is to make the redistribution of wealth fair.

Taxing robots would be a mistake because France is already lagging behind the Germans and the Chinese.
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Re: Cuba, an organic island at 80% in fruit and vegetable production.




by Ahmed » 03/02/17, 23:04

I don't think that neither Holland, neither Hamon are in the least competent in the matter and, would they be that it would not change anything, since their common specialty is only to tell their potential voters what they want to hear.

You write:
Robots take care of the thankless and repetitive tasks. Man can suddenly devote himself to more rewarding tasks. The problem is to make the redistribution of wealth fair.

The first two sentences refer to an abstract view of "man" which, in this context, is coherent. Except that this presupposes the unity of a humanity which seeks to produce concrete wealth while minimizing the pain of all, which the last sentence contradicts.

Moreover, the most elementary observation shows two things: 1- that the holders of "thankless and repetitive" jobs (which I do not defend), since they are robotic, are not assigned "to more rewarding tasks. ", but lose their income. 2- we see the development of a maximum of precarious jobs in many industries and services, where robotization is not yet achieved or not feasible ... stop-gap jobs that slip into the interstices of " rationalization "of production.
The problem is therefore not more equitable redistribution, since the functioning of the system postulates inequality, but would be to get out of it ... Not easy when it is engrammed in our neurons ...
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Re: Cuba, an organic island at 80% in fruit and vegetable production.




by sen-no-sen » 03/02/17, 23:10

izentrop wrote:Robots take care of thankless and repetitive tasks. Man can therefore devote himself to more rewarding tasks. The problem is to make the redistribution of wealth fair.


It's a somewhat idealistic speech ... : Lol:
Automation should affect all areas, and paradoxically "jobs" should ultimately have less impact than rewarding professions such as airline pilot, surgeon, engineers, reporter etc.
The pauperization generated by the automation of the means of production is on the verge of creating a servile mass of poor workers, and it will therefore be more "logical" to employ them than to use expensive technical means.
In fact, it is more profitable to replace an airline pilot (at € 10000 / net / month) with an autopilot system than to provide a robot to clean up and empty the trash *.
In reality, the future promises us a reverse reality to the current doxa: good jobs should be automated and dirty jobs should be generalized ... : roll:
It even seems that it has already started ....


* It is technically easier to fly an unmanned plane than to design a robot that must adapt to the typology of a room and to the very many manipulations necessary for carrying out the cleaning of an office.
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Re: Cuba, an organic island at 80% in fruit and vegetable production.




by dede2002 » 04/02/17, 10:29

I do not understand how we could tax a robot, which does not receive a salary?

His only salary is energy, but he uses it entirely to accomplish his task.

A bit like slaves at the time, did we imagine taxing them?
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Re: Cuba, an organic island at 80% in fruit and vegetable production.




by izentrop » 04/02/17, 11:18

Ahmed wrote:I don't think that neither Holland nor Hamon are the least competent in the matter
Both refer to the professionalism of economists, the second tinged with populism, because it is the rule today to have a chance of being elected.

He has already partially turned over his jacket, because the stake is no longer the same
“Coaster pedaling”, “blurring”, “blurring”, “reversal”… Since yesterday, Benoît Hamon's universal income proposal has been in the news. Discreetly modified, four days before the first round of primary ...
... Thus, "active" robots would finance the universal income of "inactive" humans ... the "robot tax" removes all credibility from universal income ...
To reflect on a “robot tax” is, moreover, to ignore that the French productive apparatus is precisely under-equipped. ...

France has more or less 35.000 robots, against more than double in Italy and triple across the Rhine, and the trend is not ready to reverse. In 2015, robot manufacturers estimate that France installed around 3.000 additional robots, far behind the 21.000 automata purchased by Germany and the 68.000 by China ...

The battle for competitiveness is far from won ...
https://www.challenges.fr/election-pres ... sel_448968
Too bad, the idea of ​​a minimum subsistence income that does not prevent the desire to earn more by work would limit the stress of losing a job.
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Re: Cuba, an organic island at 80% in fruit and vegetable production.




by dede2002 » 05/02/17, 15:33

Hello :)

I'm going to bore you again with the rice stories, at least as "hs" as those of the robots, since they concern more than "half" of humanity ...

Rice is only the third plant cultivated in tonnage worldwide, but it is the first cultivated plant eaten by humans, the first two being used to feed farm animals and engines ...

I would like to create a dedicated topic, but here we can talk about it, because Cuba is rather placed (politically, not necessarily gastronomically) in the "big half" that eats rice.

From what I understand, "half" of humanity feeds on rice, and "half" of humanity grows rice, using no-input * techniques with low economic yield.

However, economically speaking, producing without inputs is an insult to the system, because the calculation of the profit in relation to the inputs displays a profitability of infinite percent, enough to make the biggest scholars of the system jealous!

By dint of learning about the SRI technique, I notice that "discreetly" it is gaining ground all over the world (according to the latest news, there are 200 rice farmers in Madagascar who use and adopt it).

And it finds detractors, such as for example in Indonesia (see attached link) where it has been tested on land pummeled by chemicals for years, to conclude that there has been a decrease in yield, to which it has been replied that the IRS needs a biological activity in the soil, which in this case was absent.

* From the dollar point of view, inputs into self-employed labor do not count.

A little reading, for those interested : Wink:

http://www.i-sis.org.uk/CPVPIGMR.php

https://www.swissaid.ch/fr/node/662

http://www.gatesfoundation.org/fr/How-W ... frica-AGRA

https://www.grain.org/article/entries/1 ... ricains%5D

http://sri.ciifad.cornell.edu/countries ... chdata.pdf
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Re: Cuba, an organic island at 80% in fruit and vegetable production.




by Ahmed » 05/02/17, 17:23

Dédé2002, you write:
However, economically speaking, producing without inputs is an insult to the system, because the calculation of the profit in relation to the inputs displays a profitability of infinite percent, enough to make the biggest scholars of the system jealous!

This paradox is easily explained, since a food crop (and beyond, in a "natural" economy) is perfectly unproductive from a capitalist point of view, whatever the returns. So it is impossible stricto sensu to speak of profitability, a criterion which applies, in all logical rigor, only to cash crops. Profitability is not concerned with utility, but with the abstract value produced; from this point of view, a decrease in concrete wealth (natural or artificial) may very well be correlated with an increase in profitability (if a good or a resource goes from free or moderate cost to paid access, appears profitability).

That a foundation such as that of your last link (financed by billionaires) can work for agriculture "from below" is to introduce the wolf into the fold.
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Re: Cuba, an organic island at 80% in fruit and vegetable production.




by dede2002 » 05/02/17, 18:05

The wolf in the sheepfold is a nice example.

But we homo-sapiens seem to be closer to wolves than sheep (it's my canines that make me think that).

Unlike sheep, our solidarity revolves around a chef, the man feels good when he has (is) a chef ...

And like dogs, we begin to worship a leader "of another species", in this case the all-powerful technology and its engine the financial industry. : Shock:
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Re: Cuba, an organic island at 80% in fruit and vegetable production.




by Ahmed » 05/02/17, 18:16

I didn't know you had such big canines! : Lol:
I would not speak of a chef, but rather of a fetish (to which chefs are subject, dixit Marx: "Dominants are dominated by their own domination".
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Re: Cuba, an organic island at 80% in fruit and vegetable production.




by Janic » 06/02/17, 09:27

But we homo-sapiens seem to be closer to wolves than sheep (it's my canines that make me think that).

I didn't know you had such big canines!

Maybe he's a vampire? : Evil:
given the overflow of his canines in homosapiens, he would have great difficulty in grasping, with these, any prey. It's crazy what educational brainwashing can prevent simple reasoning from existing.
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