Canopy?

Agriculture and soil. Pollution control, soil remediation, humus and new agricultural techniques.
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Did67
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Re: The tarpaulin?




by Did67 » 21/07/17, 07:45

1) Heat treatment is authorized in the "bio" specifications (conventional heat treatment, with a steam generator, to "disinfect" the soil).

With copper sulphate and composting all the time, this is one of my most serious "reservations" compared to "organic" techniques, which are not always respectful of living things!

Organic, I remind you, is a reaction to conventional agriculture and not a "construction of an optimized system based solely on living things".

2) I have no tangible data on the effect of the tarpaulins.

It is known that anecic worms stall at a layer of the soil where the temperature is 12 °. They will go down. No doubt reduce (suspend?) Their activity ...

The most useful aerobic bacteria are most abundant in the first cm of soil. They are sensitive to the temperature of the soil ... But they multiply extremely quickly and have forms of resistance. So I think that in a few days, the problem of possible mortality is resolved.

So I think the tarpaulin is a good blow with the baton in the ground. I did it at the very beginning, the first year, in the fall / winter. There, it does not "overheat". May I stopped following this reflection: oxygen, aerobic disturbances ...

On this earth, there are always compromises to be made. This one, like copper, was abusive to me, given my goals.

That being said :

a) A professional producer has constraints that I don't have; just like the "organic" producer, the MSV market gardeners make compromises that I can dispense with. Far be it from me to criticize them. All my lectures start by asking the "definition domain" of PP: from a few dozen to a few hundred square meters. Beyond these limits, what I say poses problems, as a mathematical function no longer means anything outside its domain of definition (or is simply absurd)

b) Yes, nature is resilient. For my part, this does not seem to me to be a reason to club her, to make her suffer, to destabilize her. When we can!

c) Because yes, a vegetable garden, even a PP is an anthropized system, where we impose constraints on the living. Even at home. So ultimately everything is only "cursor position". I try to keep it as much as possible on the "living" side ...

d) All this is reason enough to "reason" and not to "copy". Including these "popes" that are each other, including the Schreiber, the Mulet ...

To return to the question at the beginning:

- it cannot be "positive" for the soil; it's obvious !

- So the question we must ask ourselves is not "covering or not covering?". She is: can I do without ??? Always the famous "think before acting". My answer to me is: yes, I can do without. And so, if I can do without and seeing that it cannot be positive, my answer for mon PP: niet in the form of summer tarpaulin. But I will try winter tarpaulin to have warmer soil after winter, in my greenhouse, and for the production of early vegetables. At the risk of suffocating a little my living organisms (but I do not want them to work too much in winter, because they would produce nitrates which I do not want). The forcing greenhouse will therefore be a system which I accept is much more anthropized, since "I impose" many things on nature: produce earlier, water management, higher temperature ... So to have vegetables earlier, I anthropize a lot !!! [In my head, the greenhouse is not the "PP"; it's a different system].
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Re: The tarpaulin?




by olivier75 » 21/07/17, 08:40

Hello,
In one of his videos, Francois mulet encourages the use of tarpaulin without ideology, to free up time without compromising cultures, and use this same time to learn to do without it.
I think that, put on bare ground, the thermal mass makes that only a small thickness and burnt, the maintenance of the humidity helping. At least some of the bacteria should not really suffer below 50 *, the recommended tarpaulins are woven and therefore breathable.
Olivier.
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Re: The tarpaulin?




by ilguimat » 21/07/17, 13:11

I follow the MSV videos a lot, and particularly the interventions of the three people you quote.
Everything is relative in fact. I already think that the simple fact that a homo sapiens looks at a meadow constitutes a criminogenic first step ... : Cry: Laying hay will eradicate heaps of populations, microorganisms, insects ... etc. accustomed to weeds, but develop other beneficial networks that interest us. For tarpaulins, there are lots of kinds, some are mircroporous to allow water and gas exchanges. And then it's a matter of eating, of not ending up on the street at the end of the month. The constraints are the same for farmers who switch to conservation agriculture and no-till. As Konrad Schreiber says that I am a lot too "if you have to put a small dose of glyphosate to get past the caps, we do it".

We can have exactly the same debate with compost, the unconditional hero of the dominant ecological discourse. And which, on closer inspection, is a poor ecological success in terms of wasted thermal energy and the discharge of gases into the atmosphere. However, it is a thousand times better than sending the green wet waste transported by 38 tonnes supplied with fossil fuels to incineration.

The constraints and the ecological added value cannot be the same for an urban, a rural, a Sunday gardener, a market gardener, a Serb, a Senegalese. There are dozens of different parameters. The important thing is that, at each level, make the effort within the limits of their means. And this simple effort has a huge scale effect, because it can be long-term due to its acceptability, and therefore also have time to improve.

You see, it's all a question of which end you grab the spyglass from.
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Re: The tarpaulin?




by Adrien (ex-nico239) » 21/07/17, 14:43

Did67 wrote:To return to the question at the beginning:

- it cannot be "positive" for the soil; it's obvious !


Thank you for this answer which confirms what I suspected.

For the rest totally agree with you you must always do according to its objectives, constraints ... etc

After for the greenhouse I would rather be in the perspective of the giant terrarium : Mrgreen:

Oaks and cherry trees start to grow back under the greenhouse, just like outside the baby crickets happily dig their galleries etc.

Which does not exclude that I carry out over time completely supernatural experiences : Mrgreen:

I admit that winter management particularly tickles me ... but we'll come back to it when the time is right
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Re: The tarpaulin?




by Adrien (ex-nico239) » 21/07/17, 15:01

olivier75 wrote:Hello,
In one of his videos, Francois mulet encourages the use of tarpaulin without ideology, to free up time without compromising cultures, and use this same time to learn to do without it.
I think that, put on bare ground, the thermal mass makes that only a small thickness and burnt, the maintenance of the humidity helping. At least some of the bacteria should not really suffer below 50 *, the recommended tarpaulins are woven and therefore breathable.
Olivier.


Yes I heard that too.

As said before the pros have speed constraints ...

I do not have one so I take this opportunity to do without these solutions there.
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Re: The tarpaulin?




by olivier75 » 21/07/17, 17:52

Nico239,
I specify in case, the time saved is on weeding.
Olivier.
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Re: The tarpaulin?




by Adrien (ex-nico239) » 22/07/17, 00:30

olivier75 wrote:Nico239,
I specify in case, the time saved is on weeding.
Olivier.


Yes yes no worry ...
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Re: The tarpaulin?




by Adrien (ex-nico239) » 22/07/17, 00:42

ilguimat wrote:Laying hay will eradicate lots of populations, microorganisms, insects ... etc used to wild grasses, but will develop other beneficial networks that interest us.


Well, I'm not sure that the laying of hay eradicates anything of this type except certain wild herbs which have a hard time growing back under the layer ...

However your thinking is interesting because it covers (this is the case to say ...) this concept of tarpaulin.

Indeed you are (in my opinion in part) right, the hay spread on a ground by our human intervention is also a form of tarpaulin.

If it has the immense advantage of protecting the earth in summer from the aggressions of the sun, as a grassy meadow would do, on the other hand in spring it delays the warming of the earth ...

Hence my question: would it be appropriate (or not) at the beginning of spring to precisely remove this hay which would thus allow the earth to warm up faster and leave the earth ... "naked" until the appearance of the first heats say summer level :?:

Basically this year with us we would have removed the hay towards the end of March to put it back about the second half of May.
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Re: The tarpaulin?




by ilguimat » 24/07/17, 12:55

nico239 wrote:
ilguimat wrote:Laying hay will eradicate lots of populations, microorganisms, insects ... etc used to wild grasses, but will develop other beneficial networks that interest us.


Well, I'm not sure that the laying of hay eradicates anything of this type except certain wild herbs which have a hard time growing back under the layer ...

However your thinking is interesting because it covers (this is the case to say ...) this concept of tarpaulin.

Indeed you are (in my opinion in part) right, the hay spread on a ground by our human intervention is also a form of tarpaulin.

If it has the immense advantage of protecting the earth in summer from the aggressions of the sun, as a grassy meadow would do, on the other hand in spring it delays the warming of the earth ...

Hence my question: would it be appropriate (or not) at the beginning of spring to precisely remove this hay which would thus allow the earth to warm up faster and leave the earth ... "naked" until the appearance of the first heats say summer level :?:

Basically this year with us we would have removed the hay towards the end of March to put it back about the second half of May.


This is a question that often arises in permaculture. For those who do not remove anything, it is clear that cold soil delays initial growth. But the delay is not necessarily huge, or even noticeable. Apart from this first parameter, I would say that everything depends on the nature of your soil, the climate, the specificity of your biotope.
For my part I had left in place, but next year if I stay in winter hay coverage (I also think of green manure), I will spread it in the spring to cover it again. Indeed, starting the plants was difficult, moreover I have a soil with a hydromorphic tendency which can be quickly saturated with water. Despite the hay, I also had compaction zones.
In addition the voles regularly raid, there are galleries everywhere. Conclusion for me: spread the hay in spring + light tillage. But it may not be necessary if I choose the non-freezing green fertilizer option (= nitrogen + water regulation + tillage).
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Re: The tarpaulin?




by ilguimat » 24/07/17, 16:10

nico239 wrote:
ilguimat wrote:Laying hay will eradicate lots of populations, microorganisms, insects ... etc used to wild grasses, but will develop other beneficial networks that interest us.


Well, I'm not sure that the laying of hay eradicates anything of this type except certain wild herbs which have a hard time growing back under the layer ...


Butterflies will still fly a little worse under the hay ... : roll: in fact we act artificially on the medium to substitute one biotope for another. But hey, a grazing deer does the same thing on its scale.
Joking aside, I find that the debate on market gardening techniques illustrates well the schizophrenia and the limits of the system. I invite you to watch François Mulet MSV 1/6. Very synthetic on pedogenesis and the path of destructive agricultural practices.
As he evokes, the worst soil that one can find (and he speaks with full knowledge of the facts) remains a vegetable soil for the simple and good reason that everything is exported there, without any importation of OM, unlike a soil agricultural where there is always a little import in the form of straws or residual roots.
And there it is funny: sequence at 26.00
So when, after 4 or 5 years, all the MO stock has been eaten, what will the soil feed on? Well, the only thing that is edible is what grows: hence the exponential inflation of diseases and other pests on the poor salads that you could still plant.
So what to do when you are in ORGANIC super AB, with zero pesticides or glyphosates tolerated ??? Well water of course! Water is organic, right? Even more organic than a plastic sheet normally ... Even when injected at 200 ° C under pressure in the soil! : Shock: with a moissebate transformed into a giant vaporetto which will "properly" annihilate the slightest burst of residual life. It reminds me of the "return of the living dead" (Dan O bannon 1985), in desperation we drop an atomic bomb on the city infested with zombies, to kill everyone, dead, alive, undead ...

Yep, I didn't know, BUT WE CAN AUTOCLAVE A FLOOR, and be a great Bioman. Good not necessarily a superhero.

So that puts the use of the tarpaulin into perspective ... at the margin.

Finally, a "hénaurme" step would already be the transition to MSV as a standard model, tarpaulin or no tarpaulin!
Last edited by ilguimat the 24 / 07 / 17, 16: 15, 1 edited once.
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