Solar: Jean Luc Perrier, solar hydrogen production

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Re: Solar: Jean Luc Perrier, solar hydrogen production




by chatelot16 » 23/02/18, 21:58

how to store hydrogen?

I just bought on the small corner a flexible tank 25 m3, to store water ... but it is not originally for water is to transport wine in the container ... it is not simple plastic, it is a multilayer with anti oxygen barrier in EVOH like bag in box

this EVOH layer protects the wine from oxygen but also has a remarkable hydrogen seal

small detail: once filled with 25m3 of hydrogen archimedes makes a lift of 25kg ... and I'm not sure that this tank weighs more than 25kg ... it is possible that it flies

combient of kwh there is in 25m3 of hydrogen ... I have just calculated 88kwh ...

this tank is reinforced by a layer of white polypropylene as the big bag: be careful it is not durable, it loses its resistance a few years in the sun ... to protect with a few layers of black polyethylene
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Re: Solar: Jean Luc Perrier, solar hydrogen production




by BaudouinLabrique » 24/02/18, 10:24

This sacred JULES VERNE was right again!

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(Extract of The mysterious island)
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Re: Solar: Jean Luc Perrier, solar hydrogen production




by BaudouinLabrique » 27/02/18, 14:58

Here is, more prosaically, another project of valorization of the solar energy (photovoltaic) in hydrogen and for a residential site


Having already returned my old house (> 50 years) to positive energy (water, electricity and heating), I plan to switch to hydrogen production to try to disconnect from the network (in Belgium, the network serves battery, via the counter which turns backwards). (Cf. [url = http: www.retrouversonnord.be/dossier_H2Net.doc] Summary file [/ url])

Probable choice of system: the Solenco Power Box (SPB - Solvay patent, Belgium); the designer, Dr. Vandenborre, announces that his SBP (Solenco Power Box) announces that this makes it possible to produce hydrogen (yield of the total cycle of 41%) when there is surplus electricity and to remake electricity when it is missing and this in an automatic way, the residual heat (54%) being recovered, the total loss would be only 5%.
The SPB would be the first system of this type existing at least in Europe.

Thank you for telling me what you think (by remaining as constructive as possible)

It is therefore impossible to estimate the duration of such cycles that will occur each day, but an estimate can be made as follows.


EVALUATION :

In what follows, I take into account the figures for the past period which ran from December 1, 2016 to December 5, 2017. Everything is therefore conditional. Due to the numerous cycles of the CEP throughout the year (mainly between November and March), it is not possible to determine them in advance, since it depends on the cycles of sunshine captured by the photovoltaic tracker (tracker of 45m² of capture surface) and which can be very short (less than a minute) to a maximum of 11 hours per day (as at present: nearly 10 hours per day and production records for such a month: 70kWh or> 7,1 Wh / Wc on the only Sunday February 25)
([url = http: www.retrouversonnord.be/Copie_de_Stat_Prod_Cons_BL_2015-version_25-7-2015.xls] Here are the statements of production / consumption] [/ url]

Overall two periods were determined to facilitate the calculation.
I hope my calculations are accurate!

NB In what follows CEP = electrolyser / hydrogen fuel cell pair

Period electrolyser: it will start therefore the first time the production of hydrogen (via the work of the electrolyser) from mid-March, that is to say when the electricity production begins to exceed the power consumption and to arrive at a balance to be produced of approximately 3.650 kWh (good year or year, average production bonus score currently reached at the beginning of December and corresponding to the current average negative score of the ORES index).
It must be taken into account that during this period of time, the residual heat of the electrolyser could perhaps be used to slightly boost the COP of the heat pump (PAC). If it is not technically possible, this heat loss is then likely to be found in the non-recoverable 5%.
NB The CEP would indeed have 95% total efficiency: electricity> hydrogen> electricity + recovered waste heat.

Fuel cell period: Then, at the beginning of December, when the fuel cell will relay the electrolyser (since the electricity consumption then starts to exceed the electricity production), it will produce hydrogen and much of the heat which strongly boosts the COP. of the CAP, will reduce its consumption and thus be able to use the kWh saved for the work of the CEP.

Here is how the production / consumption figures are articulated (per year).

The total electricity that may have been produced via the hydrogen produced will therefore have to be (year to year) about 3.650 kWh.
Given the loss of 59% to be able to produce these 3.650 kWh, the CEP will therefore have to consume around 8.900 kWh (it will in fact only produce 41% of this electricity received) out of the 11.500 kWh produced. In these 59%, are the 54% of heat production of the CEP and which therefore corresponds to 4.800 kWh, which will then benefit the CAP: as a result, it will then save nearly 70% of its consumption which will then be reduced. at 2.200 kWh (> 7.000 - 4.800); moreover, it will prolong its lifespan accordingly.
As a reminder, this saving will offset almost all the loss of 54% CEP in the form of heat.

What will actually need to be produced more electricity (via various optimizations) is approximately 1.200 kWh and therefore a little more than 10% of the current production: 5% as planned in the CEP cycle + various losses estimated at 5% (it will indeed be necessary to add this small additional loss due to the equipment that will be needed to transfer calories produced by the CEP to the PAC - see next paragraph).
In such conditions and to drastically limit losses, only a heat exchanger (buffer tank) performance can be inserted between the CEP and the PAC.

Note

1 ° It will be necessary to set the temperature of exit of the brine heated up to 20 ° maximum (according to the technical limits of work of the CAP).

2 ° The heat of the surplus CEP (after passing through the heat exchanger) can then be prioritized for heating (temperature range between 35 ° 45 °)

3 ° If there are still calories, they can be reinjected into the return circuit (to the ground) of the brine via a solenoid valve controlled by a thermostat and a small circulators: so that in part can be recovered in the water of the brine inlet circuit when the heat pump is running.

The losses of the transfer of the calories will then be limited notably thanks to the over-isolation of the additional circuits as well as of the heat exchanger, in the manner of what has already been practiced for the boiler and the buffer tank.


Hydrogen storage :

The fuel cell will therefore have to produce 3.650 kWh and which will have to have a sufficient storage capacity with a comfortable reserve taking into account that the annual production can be higher than what was price here in account (the previous annual period).

According to the calculation that was done for the Solenco Power Box (°), 12 hydrogen carboys compressed to 200bars make it possible to produce 485kWh, which gives 40,417 kWh per cylinder.
Under such conditions, I would need 90 (!) Carboys of this type and therefore more than> 7 units (like the one shown on the photo), which would take a place of 19m on 0,74 or 8,5m on 1,5m !!!
Certainly, the risk of leaks is multiplied by 90!
So you have to find another storage solution.

Other (theoretical) storage solutions (°),
- to 1bar: 12.400 m³ !!!
- 75 bars: 166 m³ (8,5 tank m long if 2,5 m diameter)
- to 350bars: 36 m³ (3 tank m long if diameter of 2 m)
- at 700bars: 18 m³ (3 tank m long x diameter of 1m)

but are there bottles other than those at 200 bars to reduce the risk of leaks?
I interviewed McPhy by email to inform me about the solid storage system.
On his website, McPhy announces that it is a " completely reversible system (storage / retrieval) " and " perfectly adapted to the fluctuations of renewable energies (absorbs the variations of hydrogen production of the electrolyser ».

° At a pressure of 200bars, a cylinder of 0,9m²H can produce 485kWh (see photo), which gives an equivalent of 180m³H to 1 bar,
and therefore 2,695 kWh (485 divided by 180)

Thanks for your help !
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« The future belongs to those who see the possibilities before they become obvious. (Theodore Levitt).
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Re: Solar: Jean Luc Perrier, solar hydrogen production




by the alfred » 27/04/18, 17:23

I have just re-read partly the beginning of the messages on jl Perrier
that I knew quite a lot, during his family vacation on the lake of parentis and for having spent evenings to discuss with him and redo calculations

a nice mistake has slipped into the data listed on this site here
his heliostat did not give a power of 50kw but 5 kw

50kw about it is the power of that of mont louis of 140 and some m²

I remember that the constant solar and 340 w / m² so we must not invent miraculous yield without significant surfaces
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Re: Solar: Jean Luc Perrier, solar hydrogen production




by Remundo » 27/04/18, 23:54

the solar constant, perhaps, but in full sun without cloud, well oriented, we reach 1000 W / m² in order of magnitude. So it's a power-peak that is not sustainable 24H / 24 of course.

That said, the mistakes you have detected are possible.
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Re: Solar: Jean Luc Perrier, solar hydrogen production




by the alfred » 28/04/18, 11:36

I do not think you understand what the solar constant is

1000w per m² is 1368 w / m² out of atmosphere and before absorption by this one

stay in the best of times 340w / m² whether you like it or not

potash a little, phone to Odeillo
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Re: Solar: Jean Luc Perrier, solar hydrogen production




by Remundo » 28/04/18, 12:38

not my little con-descendant.

1368 W / m² is the so-called AM0 solar power: what we receive facing the Sun on Earth, but in space, out of the atmosphere and close to the Earth.

The AM1,5 solar power corresponds to what remains on the ground after crossing 1,5 atmospheres, always well in the sun, on the floor of the cows and without a cloud. It's about 1000 W / m²

after if we take into account the day-night alternations, the angular effect of the Earth's rotation, we have the "famous solar constant" of 342 W / m²

Here is a finer analysis according to the geography of solar power average received per m²:
Image
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Re: Solar: Jean Luc Perrier, solar hydrogen production




by phil53 » 24/08/18, 14:43

For those who are interested an important info if it proves usable industrially.
https://www.wedemain.fr/HySiLabs-revolu ... a3463.html
It's a hydrogen transport principle that seems great to me.
It is loaded in a silica-based material, it would become solid and during extraction it becomes liquid again.
There is no mention of the energy cost but if it really solves the storage problem we can afford a loss of transformation.
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Re: Solar: Jean Luc Perrier, solar hydrogen production




by izentrop » 25/08/18, 07:21

phil53 wrote:There is no mention of the energy cost but if it really solves the storage problem we can afford a loss of transformation.
The future will tell if this cost can be reduced, otherwise it will remain a niche product https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polysilan ... 3%A9nergie
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Re: Solar: Jean Luc Perrier, solar hydrogen production




by Christophe » 25/08/18, 12:45

Remundo wrote:Here is a finer analysis according to the geography of solar power average received per m²:
Image


If I follow you it is h24 and 365 days so?
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