The deniers of reality, a long tradition

General scientific debates. Presentations of new technologies (not directly related to renewable energies or biofuels or other themes developed in other sub-sectors) forums).
Christophe
Moderator
Moderator
posts: 79330
Registration: 10/02/03, 14:06
Location: Greenhouse planet
x 11046

Re: Negationists of Reality, a long tradition




by Christophe » 01/05/18, 10:46

Janic wrote:to consider that some are mistaken, on this or that subject, understands that the one who judges thus is itself free from error and one sees, at the top of the table, the most likely supposed false beliefs: the vaccines and the AIDS, and the voice goes from his own conditioning to his conspiracy discourse with this usual mixture of truth and lies, of which he considers himself to be a good judge.


There are still some "conspiracy theory" subjects which deserve more to have a critical mind than others ... believe and above all defend (more or less virulently) the idea of ​​the flat Earth, good God , more than 60 years after the launch of the 1st artificial satellite ... how to say: you have to be damn stupid (as the video you posted rightly says)! : Shock:

I think I'm going to think about seriously embarking on a Youtuber career ... since today apparently it is better, to disseminate ideas, to make "passionate" videos than to debate in a calm and intelligent way on a forum or a site ... :?
0 x
Christophe
Moderator
Moderator
posts: 79330
Registration: 10/02/03, 14:06
Location: Greenhouse planet
x 11046

Re: Negationists of Reality, a long tradition




by Christophe » 01/05/18, 10:53

janic if you don't believe in the "pseudo virus of AIDS" I advise you to go have a good time with some professionals in certain parts of Africa ... : Cheesy:
0 x
User avatar
thibr
I posted 500 messages!
I posted 500 messages!
posts: 723
Registration: 07/01/18, 09:19
x 269

Re: Negationists of Reality, a long tradition




by thibr » 01/05/18, 11:59

on Youtube
the chain Mental Hygiene helps to share the true and the false : Wink:
https://www.youtube.com/user/fauxsceptique/featured
0 x
Janic
Econologue expert
Econologue expert
posts: 19224
Registration: 29/10/10, 13:27
Location: bourgogne
x 3491

Re: Negationists of Reality, a long tradition




by Janic » 01/05/18, 13:40

There are still some "conspiracy theory" subjects that deserve more critical thinking than others ...

Fully agree ! What I blame is this mix of aspects of certain topics that can be questioned, and why not ?! (but I doubt that the fact that the earth is flat or not changes something fundamental about life on earth!) Weak minds, convinced by certain subjects (without personal knowledge), will put all the eggs in the same basket without considerations that they are good or rotten, as does the author of this video.
janic if you don't believe in the "pseudo virus of AIDS" I advise you to go have a good time with some professionals in certain corners of Africa

on the one hand I do not have a good time with sex workers! On the other hand, and in this case, it is possible that I inherit some STD, which is not the case of the famous HIV and it is scientifically provable.
As I repeat, we must not fall from religious superstition to "scientific" superstition.

Below is an excerpt on prostitution:
When tested, classical HIV / AIDS theory contradicts clinical evidence.
Is "Purifying HIV" nothing more than a clutter of cellular debris?

C 1999 by Valendar F. Turner Department of Emergency Medicine Royal Perth Hospital Perth, Western Australia and Andrew Melntyre Freelance Journalist Melbourne, Victoria, Australia

Women prostitutes

The notion that HIV is a "non-discriminatory" virus is also inconsistent with data from studies of female prostitutes. Even if by some unknown means a sexually transmitted infectious agent had made its way into the male homosexual population of some large American cities in the late 70 years (as is generally accepted), and given the fact that Prostitutes are frequented by bisexual men and that "protected" sex practices date as early as 1985, HIV / AIDS would have been expected to spread rapidly among prostitutes and consequently in the General population. However, the prevalence of HIV antibodies in prostitutes is almost exclusively confined to those who are addicted. Practically, all other prostitutes have not been, and do not become, HIV-positive.

In September 1985, 56 prostitutes not using intravenous drugs (NDIV) were tested "... in the rue Saint Denis, the most famous street of Paris for prostitution. More than a thousand prostitutes work in this sector ... These women, aged from 18 to 60 years, have 15 reports to 25 times a day and do not systematically use protection. "None were seropositive.
In Copenhagen, 101 NDIV prostitutes, a quarter of whom were "suspected of having up to a fifth of their clientele among homosexuals and bisexuals", were tested between August and October 1985. The average number of sexual intercourse was twenty per week. None were seropositive. .
In 1985, 132 prostitutes (and 55 non-prostitutes) who attended a Sydney clinic specializing in STDs were tested for HIV antibodies. The average number of sexual partners (clients and lovers) in the previous month was 24,5. When an estimate was made to separate clients from lovers, the average number of sexual intercourse per year rose from 175 to 450. The partners of only 14 prostitutes (1,1%) used condoms at all encounters, and 49% of their partners used condoms only in less than 20% of encounters. No woman was HIV-positive.
The same Australian clinic tested another batch of 491 prostitutes who frequented it between 1986 and 1988. At 231 prostitutes (on the 491 under investigation), 19% "had bisexual non-paying partners and 21% had partners who injected drugs; 69% always used condoms for vaginal reports with paying customers, but rarely used them with non-paying partners. Condoms were rarely used by those clients and / or partners who practiced anal sex with 18% of prostitutes. "No woman was HIV-positive.
At the time of this survey, ten years after the onset of AIDS, the authors commented: "In Australia, there has been no documented case of female prostitute infected with HIV due to a report Sexuality "(emphasis added). However, these investigators at the Sydney Sexual Health Center concluded that "there are still many women working as prostitutes in Sydney who remain at serious risk of HIV infection."
In Spain, on 519 NDIV prostitutes tested between May 1989 and December 1990, only 12 (2,3%) had a positive test, which was 'only slightly higher than the rate recorded five years earlier in similar surveys'. Some prostitutes had up to 600 partners per month and the onset of seropositivity was directly related to the practice of anal intercourse. The authors also noted that "a more striking and very disappointing finding was the low proportion of prostitutes who constantly used condoms, despite several campaigns to prevent the Spanish mass media from AIDS."
Similar data come from two Scottish studies, the study of the 1993 European Working Group on HIV infection of female prostitutes and the 1994 report on 53 903 prostitutes working in the Philippines and tested between 1985 and 1992: all These studies confirm that non-prostitutes remain virtually immune to HIV infection. For example, in this latter study, 72 women only (ie 0,01%) were found to be seropositive.
In studies showing high HIV incidence among prostitutes, there are uncertainties that challenge any explanation. For example, although "HIV has been present in commercial sex networks in the Philippines and Indonesia for almost as long as it has been in Thailand and Cambodia", the prevalence of HIV in the former has been respectively Of 0, 13% and 0,02% and, in the latter, 18,8% and 40%.
While these data are accurate, the gap defies epidemiological explanation and has puzzled experts, even though they postulate "behavioral factors" as significant differences in the degree of sexual activity among prostitutes and clients in different countries. However, we could ask another question. What exactly are "HIV" antibody tests? In any case, since 5 674 (44%) and 4 360 (34%) of the 12785 "Cambodian HIV and AIDS cases" reported up to 31 December 1997 are recorded respectively as "unknown" sex and age , This set of data must be considered problematic, at least by the WHO in Cambodia.
[*]
[*]Warning! this article thus written seems to credit the existence of HIV or rather of the presupposed HIV cause of AIDS whereas the work of the Perth team does not find any proof of this existence, proofs not brought as much by Gallo as Montagnier because not having neither of them complied with the entire protocol for determining any retrovirus. (which they recognize in the videos on this subject).

on Youtube
the chain Mental Hygiene helps to share the true and the false
https://www.youtube.com/user/fauxsceptique/featured
One can not speak of true and false; but credible or not according to the knowledge admitted or refused (not to be confused with refuted) of the moment. For example, at a time past, distant or otherwise, had it been possible to speak of quantum mechanics when we had just declared the so-called Newtonian physics. Same thing for the relativity of space / time, to fly hundreds of tons of scrap, and to explore our universe or for the round earth like heliocentrism, etc ...
0 x
"We make science with facts, like making a house with stones: but an accumulation of facts is no more a science than a pile of stones is a house" Henri Poincaré
izentrop
Econologue expert
Econologue expert
posts: 13704
Registration: 17/03/14, 23:42
Location: picardie
x 1518
Contact :

Re: Negationists of Reality, a long tradition




by izentrop » 01/05/18, 19:51

Hello,
Janic, which group are you in?
AIDS deniers, there are heaps on the Internet. Basically, we can classify them into three categories, as does L'Obs.
  • followers of conspiracy theories of all kinds, from illuminati to those who think that the CIA is behind all major events on the planet;
  • the esotericists, who believe in the virtues of weird stuff like snake venom, rhinoceros horn, UFOs ... and that AIDS does not really exist, or that it has other causes than HIV ;
  • those who objectively serve a cause - the defense of Africa, the attack on US imperialism, racism or homophobia, the promotion of alternative medicines or traditional therapies, anti-vaccine movements, etc.
http://what-the-fake.com/2017/04/19/the ... gine-sida/


For you, Luc Montagnier discovered the memory of water but not the AIDS virus ... In the latter case, it is not him but the researchers who were under his command.
0 x
Janic
Econologue expert
Econologue expert
posts: 19224
Registration: 29/10/10, 13:27
Location: bourgogne
x 3491

Re: Negationists of Reality, a long tradition




by Janic » 01/05/18, 21:01

Hello,
Janic, which group are you in?

And you ?
AIDS deniers, there are heaps on the Internet. Basically, we can classify them into three categories, as does L'Obs.
• followers of conspiracy theories of all kinds, from illuminati to those who believe that the CIA is behind all major events on the planet;
• the esotericists, who believe in the virtues of weird things like snake venom, rhinoceros horn, UFOs ... and that AIDS does not really exist, or that it has other causes than the Vih;
• those who objectively serve a cause - the defense of Africa, the attack of US imperialism, racism or homophobia, the promotion of alternative medicines or traditional therapies, anti-vaccine movements, etc.
http://what-the-fake.com/2017/04/19/the ... gine-aids /

As usual a mix of stuff and gadgets without links or links to each other. But that's part of your sites and sectarian references.
If you studied the subjects yourself instead of repetition, ridiculing absurd speeches, you might have a healthier view of all these subjects, but perhaps it is scary to see your idols breaking your face. .

That said and on the few points that I know and study closely:
The anti-vaccine movements in question are not just anti-vaccines, but militate for the respect of the laws of ethics not respected in the obligations and not the free choice that each health manager must make and respect. In the European community, 14 countries are opposed to the obligations (not opposed to vaccines) and except to consider that these states and therefore their ethics committees and responsible for the health of populations are denialists, you will need to seriously revise your Holocaust denial , him!
For you, Luc Montagnier discovered the memory of water
Other nonsense, but you collect them.
Luc Montagnier did not discover the memory of water. Do a little bit of effort to inform you before advancing this kind of stupidity.
but not the AIDS virus.

Same thing, inform yourself, inform yourself before repeating this other stupidity.
Montagnier and his team thought they had discovered the cause of IDs found in the homosexual community in majority. Hence the communication made to Professor Gallo in America who will say he thought to have discovered the AIDS virus and not that he had discovered it while he was just taking credit for this "discovery". The ensuing lawsuit, to claim paternity of the baby, will be to the detriment of Gallo who will be condemned for it.
Coincidentally, Montagnier "misplaced" the products and documents relating to this discovery and Gallo too: weird!
And yes, there is a history of all things and official documents that just need to consult, but it's a lot to ask you, it's better, so it's easier, spread lies from your sites of fun . In fact your zigotos who claim to denounce the deniers, become it themselves ... it is the law of the genre.
... In this last case, it is not him but the researchers who were under his orders.

And one more, we'll have to count them!
Teamwork is under the direction and responsibility of a "conductor" and she is co-author of this discovery, just as Wakefield was a team of co-authors the questioning of the MMR for autism cases noted by the team and other researchers unrelated to it (Wakefield being favorable to vaccines, but separated, not en bloc!)
Ask again, before defamation like your boyfriends of this kind of vomit, when the matter was tried by a court and wronged the lab, the defamatory newspaper and the defamatory journalist.
0 x
"We make science with facts, like making a house with stones: but an accumulation of facts is no more a science than a pile of stones is a house" Henri Poincaré
User avatar
Forhorse
Econologue expert
Econologue expert
posts: 2486
Registration: 27/10/09, 08:19
Location: Perche Ornais
x 360

Re: Negationists of Reality, a long tradition




by Forhorse » 01/05/18, 22:03

I suggest that you go and explain your "pseudo-AIDS virus" theory to those who contracted after unprotected sex, or to the families of those who died from it. I'm sure it would be an interesting discussion ...

Do not believe in the virus of AIDS (or pseudo virus, or whatever the AIDS in fact ...) in 2018 is of the same level as to believe that the ground is flat.

But actually I think you're just a big bad troll
0 x
Janic
Econologue expert
Econologue expert
posts: 19224
Registration: 29/10/10, 13:27
Location: bourgogne
x 3491

AZR




by Janic » 02/05/18, 09:44

I suggest that you go and explain your "pseudo-AIDS virus" theory to those who contracted after unprotected sex, or to the families of those who died from it. I'm sure it would be an interesting discussion ...
This is the trollism of a few like Izentrop too anxious to lock themselves in their fears and superstitions, plus a few lies to the key, rather than learn precisely about the reality of a scientifically demonstrable situation.
So to prove the presence of any virus (and HIV is not a virus but a retrovirus, but you probably do not know what it is, they differentiate as a male is a female) the scientist must follow a precise protocol to determine it, which was not respected and Gallo as Montagnier recognize that they have not respected this protocol: check it!
Then most of the deaths were because of AZT whose toxicity was scientifically recognized. Filled up!
Do not believe in the AIDS virus (or pseudo virus, or whatever AIDS actually ...)

Effectively " anything And that's the most important thing in your wording.
The immune deficiency "syndrome" is widely established, but unrelated to this pseudo virus. It's just a deliberate confusion and these deficiencies are in a mess, and more and more, with autoimmune diseases. But here too the wording is ambiguous.

SYNDROME, noun. masc.
A. -
1. MED., PATHOL. Set of signs, symptoms, morphological, functional or biochemical changes in the body, sometimes disparate in appearance but forming a recognizable entity that, without foretelling the causes of these events, help guide the diagnosis.
This syndrome was effective in a particular category of individuals, but not universal that is to say that the rest of the population, out of these cases, was not affected. So there is a syndrome of immunodeficiency, but more acquired! And yes! Acquired, but by what process? By a virus? Malnutrition as in Africa and elsewhere? By poisoning with drugs? By anything else?

So below a tiny part of the interview of a specialist, followed by Duesberg who are known sizes in their country.
http://www.sidasante.com/journal/scheff1.htm
Liam Scheff: How were you involved in AIDS research?
David Rasnick I am chemist specializing in research on the protease enzymes. I design and synthesize inhibitors intended to stop the proliferation of viruses and cancers that destroy tissue. When Robert Gallo announced that HIV caused AIDS, I wanted to work on inhibitors that could act on the virus. In 1985, I was at a scientific meeting when the subject of HIV was discussed. We asked a specialist what amount of HIV AIDS could be found in a person suffering from AIDS. He was asked "What is the title of HIV"?
LS: What is the title?
Rasnick: The title is the number of infectious virus particles in a sample of tissue or blood. It's easy to get a title for live viruses from a tissue specifically infected with a virus. A sample of one such tissue contains millions of infectious viral particles. If you have herpes, the sample will be taken at the level of a lesion. If it's polio, it will be taken from the intestine. If it is smallpox, it will be a pustule. In case of cold, it will be at the level of the throat. When you are infected with a virus, it infects and kills about 30% of the tissue that is its specific target before the person has any symptoms. You can determine the title of any infected area, put a fragment under a microscope, and see millions of live viruses. So, we asked the virologist "What is the title? " He has answered : " Undetectable, zero. I wondered how this was possible? How can you be sick because of something that is not there? With polio, researchers sorted out a hundred viruses before finding the right one. I thought that Gallo had just found a virus that was not right, and that we would have to start all over again. In 1987, there was a total of 30.000 AIDS cases. The number of cases did not increase as much as had been predicted. And AIDS remained confined to initially defined risk groups. 6 years after the first case of AIDS, 95% of infections were found in men, whose 2 / 3 were homosexual, and 1 / 3 drug addicts. Moreover each of these groups at risk of AIDS had diseases that were specific to him. Viruses do not induce different diseases according to male or female sex, sexual preferences, or lifestyle. Viruses have a specific but limited genetic structure, and they induce limited and similar symptoms in all people they infect. The herpes virus causes herpes lesions, but not angina. The smallpox virus also induces cutaneous lesions, but never paralysis. Viral epidemics spread exponentially during the first months or years, and kill all people who do not live long enough to develop an immune response to the causative virus. HIV WAS NOT DISTINCTING; IT WAS IN HIS POPULATION AT RISK OF DEPARTURE, and it caused different diseases according to the people. It was clear that he was not behaving like a contagious virus.In 1988, I came across an article by Peter Duesberg in the scientific journal Cancer Research. This article was about retroviruses in general, and about HIV in particular. DUESBERG WAS ONE OF THE MOST EMINENT RETROVIROLOGISTS OF THE PLANET. He had studied and sequenced the retrovirus genome in the 70 years. Duesberg's knowledge of retrovirus were unmatched. In this article, he explained, point by point, what are the retroviruses, and what they can and can not do.
Liam Scheff: HIV is a retrovirus. What is a retrovirus?
Rasnick: Retroviruses are a group of viruses WHO ARE DEPRIVED WITH CELL TOXICITY. They were discovered at the beginning of the XNIXXth century. They were one of the first identified cellular particles. There are about 20 cataloged retroviruses. They exist in all animals: dogs, cats, whales, birds, rats, hamsters and humans. Retrovirologists believe that 3000 at 1% of our DNA consists of retroviruses. Retroviruses consist of RNA that copies itself to DNA through an enzyme called reverse transcriptase. Retroviruses are transmitted matrilineally (from mother to child). THEY ARE NOT SEXUALLY TRANSMITTED. Laboratory animals do not transmit their retroviruses to each other, no matter how small their reports are. But babies still have the same retroviruses as their mothers. Current research indicates that they are simply part of us. IN 50 YEARS OF RESEARCH IN MODERN LABORATORIES, IT HAS NEVER BEEN RECOGNIZED THAT A RETROVIRUS COULD KILL CELLS OR CAUSE A DISEASE, EXCEPT IN CERTAIN SPECIAL CONDITIONS CREATED IN LABORATORY.
»

Followed by:

« Peter Duesberg: In 1987, I was invited by Cancer Research to discuss whether retroviruses, including HIV, could induce disease or immune deficiency. I have been because of my experience with retroviruses. In 1970, I was working at UC Berkeley's virology lab. The big research program at that time, in which I was involved, was finding a virus that was causing cancer. There was also a big government program for cancer-inducing virus research at the National Institute of Health. Gallo was one of the researchers working on this program. We started looking for retroviruses because of their specific qualities. Typical viruses kill cells. Their strategy is to enter a cell, kill it, and move on to the next. However, in cancer, the cells are not killed; in fact, they multiply very quickly. So, a virus could not cause cancer. RETROVIRUS, HOWEVER, DO NOT KILL CELLS. This peculiarity made them good candidates as causative agents for cancers. In 1970, I made a discovery that received a lot of attention. I isolated a retroviral gene from a cancer cell, and I infected another cell with this gene. The oncologists-virologists were very interested. They thought that was what they were looking for: a retrovirus that could infect other cells and cause cancer. I suddenly became famous. I was offered positions, I was offered a chair at Berkeley, and I was admitted to the Academy of Sciences. Of course, if a virus, or a single retrovirus, causes cancer in the real world, then the cancer would be contagious. But nobody "catches" cancer. Cancer does not go around the office. However, these fundamental considerations did not come to the mind of virus hunters. RESEARCHERS LOVE EVIDENCE THAT SEEMS SPECTACULAR, WHATEVER WHAT HAPPENS IN THE REAL WORLD[*] The carcinogenic gene of retrovirus was just a laboratory artifact. It did not exist in nature, nor in humans, nor in animals. We had created him in the laboratory, and that's where he stayed. It was just academic. Among the various work on cancer genes, my associates and I sequenced the retroviral genome. We made the cards that are used today as basic documentation for all retroviruses, HIV included.
LS: What do retroviruses do?
Duesberg: In terms of illness, they do nothing. They are transcribed into the DNA of a few cells, and they remain there as part of our genome for the rest of our lives. This did not prevent cancer-causing virus hunters from continuing to search for cancer genes using the technology we had created, and the retrovirus cards we had prepared.
"Etc ...
But you know better than these scientists, it's obvious!
in 2018 it's the same level as believing that the earth is flat.
So what is quoted above is the same level as the flat earth ?!
But actually I think you're just a big bad troll
Or it's you! Who knows ! Who spreads these fake news here?
[*] the specialist in cellular electron microscopy that was consulted by Montagnier for analysis, also said with a certain humor, that everyone discovers what he wants to see!

and an extra bonus:
https://www.sciencesetavenir.fr/sante/d ... mique_6023
« The battle raged between French and Americans to find out who isolated the now famous HIV and which could affect the royalties of patents. »
Would this be just a big deal?
« In fact, in the United States, investigations question the honesty of Robert Gallo "Etc ..
What linguistic modesty since Gallo was condemned by the American authorities
and everything to match! : Cry:
0 x
"We make science with facts, like making a house with stones: but an accumulation of facts is no more a science than a pile of stones is a house" Henri Poincaré
izentrop
Econologue expert
Econologue expert
posts: 13704
Registration: 17/03/14, 23:42
Location: picardie
x 1518
Contact :

Re: Negationists of Reality, a long tradition




by izentrop » 02/05/18, 15:55

Janic wrote: HIV is not a virus but a retrovirus
You are already leaving the wrong feet 8) , do not bother to read the rest who is of the same ilk : Mrgreen: : Mrgreen:

I put a link in case it was not clear https://www.futura-sciences.com/sante/d ... virus-249/ : Wink:
0 x
Janic
Econologue expert
Econologue expert
posts: 19224
Registration: 29/10/10, 13:27
Location: bourgogne
x 3491

Re: Negationists of Reality, a long tradition




by Janic » 02/05/18, 17:52

janic wrote: HIV is not a virus but a retrovirus

You already have bad feet, do not bother to read the rest that is the same ilk

You should already know how to read and not just browse a few articles of this type. Finally, you are really afraid to see the reality
I put a link in case it was not clear https://www.futura-sciences.com/sante/d ... virus-249 /

I have the impression that you prefer to take refuge in your ignorance. The fact of being unsigned, while real scientific articles bear the stamp of their author, is already doubtful because what qualification to the "team" in question and according to what scientific references they write? None are indicated!
"HIV, a retrovirus that infects CD4 + T cells"

there have been a few dozen cases where TCD4 lymphocytes are "infected" as in pregnancy, which is not a disease, or an HIV infection that has not been demonstrated or proven, let alone from a any drawing. In addition, reverse transcriptase is not specific to the retro virus, but you have no desire to know more, it's your right!

For Saluzzo, we find this speech became classic since the WHO is in the hands of the labs that subsidize them and his speech is more about marketing than real information, but where everything is not wrong, rather not entirely false. Thus influenza viruses change each year by adapting to the conditions of production of vaccines, more than that of the flu itself, since each year the vaccine has a metro delay.
Each pathology, subjected to an external action, adapts itself to the conditions which surround it and this is noticeable for the antibiotherapy where the antibiotics become less and less effective because the immune system develops a strategy of parade with these products and the we find the same phenomenon for plants.
Now he is careful not to talk about retroviruses and if mention is made of the disappearance of smallpox smallpox was totally eradicated on 26 October 1977 [*]The author neglects to point out that this is due to the isolation of the patients, not the vaccine (WHO report) and that it is in 1972 that the United States stopped vaccinating, while no case smallpox has been reported since 1949, and the virus is still circulating around the world. Why?
https://www.nouvelobs.com/societe/20160 ... riole.html
Henderson has not discovered a cure or developed vaccine against the disease. It is his work during the WHO campaign that is hailed. He took the lead in this campaign after leading the US CDC and was originally with Usaid a new method of fighting the epidemic.

In the 50 years, the disease killed 2 million people a year. The big countries, USA and USSR in mind, had launched large vaccination campaigns. The problem was that they did not always roll back the virus. While pursuing massive mass vaccination campaigns, Henderson has implemented the surveillance and containment strategy, which is to accurately report cases of contamination and vaccinate all people in their environment. And this in dozens of countries at the same time.

[*] what precision!
0 x
"We make science with facts, like making a house with stones: but an accumulation of facts is no more a science than a pile of stones is a house" Henri Poincaré

 


  • Similar topics
    Replies
    views
    Last message

Back to "Science and Technology"

Who is online ?

Users browsing this forum : No registered users and 176 guests