The evolution of biological species and chance ...

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izentrop
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Re: The evolution of biological species and chance ...




by izentrop » 02/02/18, 14:00

sen-no-sen wrote:
izentrop wrote:Hello,
You have discussed much about determinism, but it is a fact that man no longer evolves because he is no longer confronted with the natural selection of survival, that he lives more and more in a virtual world fiction.
Yes it is a good remark, with the development of the technique the human being started a phase of self-domestication, in particular with the agriculture and the breeding, the construction of a habitat, the wearing of clothes etc. ...
Our body no longer has to evolve with respect to our environment, since we have adapted our environment to ourselves.
However this stabilization is only temporary, because the degradation of the living conditions in the biosphere will push us towards abrupt adaptations to which the body does not have the possibility to answer ...
Transhumanism appears for certain as a response to such changes, without understanding that it is a determinism stemming from cultural evolution.
Climate change will impact some more than others.
Abrupt if we come to wars, otherwise science can bring solutions.

What is most feared are fundamentalists who seek to impose irrational fears on others and manipulate information and people who want to be reassured by fine words. I think of anti-globalization, anti-GMO, anti-vaccine and some monotheists.
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Re: The evolution of biological species and chance ...




by Janic » 02/02/18, 18:11

What is most feared are fundamentalists who seek to impose irrational fears on others and manipulate information and people who want to be reassured by fine words. I think of anti-globalization, anti-GMO, anti-vaccine and some monotheists


Oh, the fun! What does a fundamentalist recognize? You should have started there!
Which serves as a foundation, a basis for a system, a set.
http://www.cnrtl.fr/definition/fondamentaliste

unless I'm mistaken to be a globalist, pro GMO, provaccin and some atheists come out of the same definition, unless they are not systems, sets.
For what it is necessary to impose on others their irrational fears, you must live on another planet. Who says that if people are not vaccinated (especially defenseless babies) all the pathologies of the world will fall on their heads by evoking the horrible situations that await them then? Who uses an anxiety-provoking speech about hunger in the world (which does not concern us agriculturally in France, a big exporter of surpluses ... and weapons) and the possible loss of yields because of some herbs in their fields.
Fortunately, following this anxiety-provoking speech comes the reassuring, saving speech; but if, messiah we hold the miracle solution that will save you from the bad microbes, viruses, bacteria because you are unable to get by without our poisons. "And the sheep, the calves then rush to the slaughterhouse, after spitting the bassinet juicy business that sounds pleasantly in the ears of shareholders (the industry of drugs and vaccines is 1.015 billion turnover and among the juiciest profits of the industrial sectors, of course). One wonders where are the manipulators? : Cry:
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Re: The evolution of biological species and chance ...




by Janic » 05/02/18, 10:50

So I continue reading the book on Prigogine, the first part of which is essentially historical about his career as a physicist and chemist. And apart from rare allusions to biology, it is essentially the physico-chemist domain that he develops up to Part II and that is where it becomes interesting since this part of the ground floor is in this specialty biology.[*]
Admittedly, and even inevitably, all biologists have almost the same university education and therefore the biology of the living is known to all, but this part II touches more the origin of life, its appearance, than its constitution and c is that which becomes important.
Prigogine then finds it difficult to make his physicochemistry coincide with life itself, the mystery of its existence not being determined by pure chemistry or the physics of raw materials.
So, if it interests someone, we can see that what dominates are unanswered questions, if and if and finally, except a dogma that could be out of the fagot, like Monod, the answer remains, currently, waiting for more knowledge on the subject.

[*] the intense development of chemistry has caused this confusion between the chemical description found in living matter and life itself which does not adapt very well to this chemistry that is subjected to it, due to of its too great simplicity. For example water, chemically H2O, what could be simpler? But if we give only reconstituted water and therefore chemically pure, it disorganizes the living, until the death of an experimental animal, while this same water, charged with "impurities" maintains the life on the contrary.
animal owners will probably have noticed that they delight in "dirty" water in puddles or ditches while they shun tap water.
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Re: The evolution of biological species and chance ...




by sen-no-sen » 05/02/18, 23:53

Janic you should read the book Henri Atlan: "post-genomic living"This one deals in a rather clear way with the notion of self-organization in biology.
Extracts are available here:
https://books.google.fr/books?id=f10cxBGMmssC&pg=PA7&hl=fr&source=gbs_toc_r&cad=3#v=onepage&q&f=false
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Re: The evolution of biological species and chance ...




by Janic » 06/02/18, 08:52

Janic you should read Henri Atlan's work: "Post-genomic living", this one deals quite clearly with the notion of self-organization in biology.
Extracts are available here:
https://books.google.fr/books?id=f10cxB ... &q&f=false

I read this extract fairly quickly and so I only give the impression that I felt.
Interesting like the works that you indicate, but what dominates there is the will to eliminate from the equation what is not explicable by the self-organization; This is easily conceived in an approach based solely on mechanistic sciences.
However, unlike Prigogine, which he finds insufficient in himself, he nevertheless makes an incursion in the field of psychology, philosophy and other non-mechanistic fields to qualify the different discourses of each other.
Quickly, my attention was retained by the pages 30 and 31 which underline the difficulty of sticking the discourse of the theory of the self organization with the biology. I quote : " detailed realistic models of these systems may often be out of reach of existing modeling capabilities. This is particularly the case in biology complete metabolic networks in cells and networks of neurons in our brain. However, generic models of self-organization are useful despite their generality in that they suggest mechanisms possible emergence, who do not need to resort to more or less mysterious properties of "Life" or "consciousness" supposedly to explain these observations. In most cases, the emerging properties studied are only structural. Global spatio-temporal structures are produced in a non-trivial way by simple deterministic or stochastic constraints, at the level of the individual parts, because of the large number of parties in interactions"ETC ..."
Similarly, the 34 page begins like this: " the chapters of this book present different approaches to this multifaceted notion and reveal different mechanisms and properties according to the fields of observation of the phenomena and according to the formalisms used to build models .... »
Everything is said in so few words.
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Re: The evolution of biological species and chance ...




by Janic » 16/02/18, 09:25

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UrdPaxfrbqs
Darwin: the theory of evolution and human genetics

Excellent subject and regardless of whether or not to believe in evolution, it is his reflection from 1h29 'on the impact of scientists and engineers on the future of our planet.
And also:
1h43'21 '' "Do you think we can create an artificial life?
Create the smallest genome that can allow a bacteria to survive ... you have to see that; no living being could exist without the others so the genome the minimum genome that we know today to make living beings work is almost all the genomes of the world »
So to meditate on the origin of life!
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Re: The evolution of biological species and chance ...




by Christophe » 20/02/18, 14:07

A documentary of anticipation on the evolution of species that I did not know yet: The Future is Wild!



Set subtitles in French
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Re: The evolution of biological species and chance ...




by izentrop » 04/05/18, 00:54

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Re: The evolution of biological species and chance ...




by Janic » 04/05/18, 08:19

Can we deny the theory of evolution?
A theory can neither deny nor assert itself, it is just a proposed model that will be more or less confirmed or invalidated according to the criteria that everyone will remember !
The speech of this guy is therefore part of the classics of evolution theorists and is only worth the belief he gives to this model. [*]
You have 220 pages that examine point by point the arguments that this guy uses by comparing them to other arguments neither more reliable, nor less reliable, but only different. So you are specialized in electricity, it seems to me, whereas I am completely nil, of null, in this field, but I retained that according to which one considers a connection in series (theory of the evolution ) or in parallel (theory of creation) and from the same basic elements :P, U, I, R do not get the same real result. After each one chooses its connections according to the result that it expects.
So if you want an answer, read these 220 pages, even if the reading does not seem to be your forte! and leaves all the religious digressions aside that are irrelevant to the subject.

[*] For example, in the related subject on Holocaust denial, there are scientists who support the theory of HIV, and other scientists contest this point, and not least, there are scientists who support vaccinations and other scientists who dispute this speech; in the end we are left with enormous global ignorance, since we will always find favorable and unfavorable arguments, which explains and justifies the immense variety of beliefs of each individual.

and as a sign someone: "To have reason to believe does not mean that one is right to believe. " Ah, it's even :D you!
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Re: The evolution of biological species and chance ...




by moinsdewatt » 04/05/18, 23:23

Janic wrote: ..... So you are specialized in electricity, it seems to me, while I am completely nil, of zero, in this area, but I retained that according to whether we consider a series connection ( theory of evolution) or in parallel (theory of creation)


What is this attempt at analogy completely cretinous?

Janic is really a case.
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