The evolution of biological species and chance ...

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pedrodelavega
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Re: The evolution of biological species and chance ...




by pedrodelavega » 04/06/16, 12:16

Obamot wrote:So he created a Screen Foundation >>> in 2006 but he's still the boss > !

Medias-presse.info is one of those news sites known as an "far-right conspirator" (easy to verify, google is your friend).

To discredit a slate article that does not go into ton meaning, to arrive, by capilotractées deductions, to quote another which speaks of homosexual lobby and so on .... It becomes a little limit.

As izentrop says, overlaps the information that you find on the internet with more serious sources: You will then discover that, even if there are some proven conspiracies around the world, there are however much less than you claim in many of your posts.
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Re: The evolution of biological species and chance ...




by Janic » 04/06/16, 13:17

You will then discover that, even if there are some proven conspiracies around the world, there are however much less than you claim in many of your posts.
or much more. Indeed what some call proven conspiracies are those that are highly publicized, a multitude of others (of lesser scope) do not present media interest for certain written or auditory newspapers.
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Re: The evolution of biological species and chance ...




by Obamot » 04/06/16, 18:58

pedrodelavega wrote:As said izentrop

Who is that ?

And if you started by answering honestly when asked a question, instead of running away like a pheasant!
Because your insults can keep you and your opinions are little better than them : Mrgreen:
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Re: The evolution of biological species and chance ...




by izentrop » 04/06/16, 23:35

Well ! a great omnipresent talker who confronts children with their contradictions : Mrgreen:
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Re: The evolution of biological species and chance ...




by Obamot » 04/06/16, 23:54

Infantilism side, Pédro roi de la tchatche it's fun Image on the other hand, being yourself in the "TOP TEN", I find you rather daring ^^
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Re: The evolution of biological species and chance ...




by sen-no-sen » 05/06/16, 12:59

Janic wrote:
(...) unless we consider that this term nature ( other times chance) is just another way of designating what previous cultures called god (or gods). indeed this non-game with dice underpins that this universe is directed with a master's hand where nature is only an instrument which makes it possible to achieve this way of not playing with dice.


An interesting point to raise (history to return to the subject!) Concerns the notion of chance.
Advocates of creationism often point out that life, and by extension the universe, could not have come about by chance.
It is somewhat an abuse of language and even a cognitive bias.
Chance is to be compared with the idea of ​​incapacity, for a given observer, to predict with certainty the arrival of a phenomenon.
The question of the appearance of life by chance is therefore irrelevant ... in this case it would have been necessary to have been born before our ... appearance, to be able to say or not if such a possibility is possible (there are however elements scientific response).
The question to ask is therefore not about the appearance of life by chance, but rather about the emergence of the complexity of life from chaos, which is somewhat different.
This point of view is, I recall, that of science, but also ... of many cosmogonies (!), Creationism being a late interpretation.
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Re: The evolution of biological species and chance ...




by Janic » 05/06/16, 13:41

sen no sen hello
you want to revive the subject? Okay!

An interesting point to raise (history to return to the subject!) Concerns the notion of chance.

Chance is to be compared with the idea of ​​incapacity, for a given observer, to predict for sure the arrival of a phenomenon.

Without certainty = by ignorance!
Certainty is the full assurance of the accuracy of something.

The question of the appearance of life by chance is therefore irrelevant ... in this case it would have been necessary to have been born before our ... appearance, to be able to say or not if such a possibility is possible (there are however elements scientific response).

This is a fallacy!
Indeed, being born before to be able to say whether or not such a possibility is possible would no longer imply chance but certainty.
Same thing, scientifically, we are at the stage of theories not certainties (therefore appealing to chance as defined by the dictionary. We therefore go in circles!)
The question to ask is therefore not about the appearance of life by chance, but rather about the appearance of the complexity of life from chaos, which is somewhat different.

There it is more precise (but it is not me who invokes chance all the time since I assert that chance does not exist. Everything obeys laws) Now the principle of entropy goes from organized it into chaos and never vice versa. A new, unmaintained and protected car will rust and degrade, but not the other way around.
This point of view is, I recall, that of science,
only a few particular sciences!
Sciences that know only a tiny bit about what already exists (on life) and nothing about how it can exist.
Creationism being a late interpretation.
Or an interpretation preceding all the others!
Creationism is only an observation that chaos does not appear to be organized and we fall back on Pasteur's experiences, on spontaneous non-generation (that's really scientific because it is verified and double-checked!)
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Re: The evolution of biological species and chance ...




by sen-no-sen » 05/06/16, 15:13

Janic wrote: Certainty is the full assurance of the accuracy of something.

Thank you, I have a dictionary ...


This is a fallacy!
Indeed, being born before to be able to say whether or not such a possibility is possible would no longer imply chance but certainty.



This is completely false ...
We constantly precede events of which we ignore the coming (la palissade!), But maybe Janic know the combination of the next lotto?
To assert that life (or the universe) could not appear by chance, it would be necessary to have a set of universes and to carry out measurements ... and after, only afterwards it would be possible to invalidate such a possibility.
Given that we are present on this earth, in the absence of any visible "creator", and taking into account the observation of the phenomena surrounding us, the most probable conclusion (absolute certainties are only the domain of belief) clearly goes in the opposite direction to that of creationists.

There it is more precise (but it is not me who invokes chance all the time since I assert that chance does not exist. Everything obeys laws) Now the principle of entropy goes from organized it into chaos and never vice versa. A new, unmaintained and protected car will rust and degrade, but not the other way around.


You make a confusion between energy dissipation and organization.
A zero entropy amounts to a dissipation of zero energy, which in our universe amounts to the "period" known as the "Big Bang", a period after which begins, according to general relativity, the arrow of time (10-43s).
The second principle of thermodynamics states that entropy increases, however this is not necessarily linked to "chaos".
Differences in potential are necessarily necessary to generate energy dissipative structures, we humans are part of it.
Regarding chance, as I have already explained a number of times, it is above all a popular name.
In science we will speak more readily of statistical mechanics.

Sciences that know only a tiny bit about what already exists (on life) and nothing about how it can exist.

This affirmation is completely free, since here you imply an "unknown science" which would explain everything ... where is this science?
My assertion is based on rational ... and known sciences!

Or an interpretation preceding all others !
Creationism is only an observation that chaos does not appear to be organized and we fall back on Pasteur's experiences, on spontaneous non-generation (that's really scientific because it is verified and double-checked!)
[/ Quote]

Can you give me historical references regarding creationism? :)
Pasteur's experiments prove nothing, the time scales in the laboratory are far too short to be able to demonstrate anything, moreover the initial conditions for the appearance of life are themselves unknown ... on the other hand in computer science, Time-lapse experiments make it clear that simple laws can emerge from complexity, and from the chaos of order, and vice versa.
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Re: The evolution of biological species and chance ...




by Janic » 05/06/16, 17:29

We constantly precede events of which we ignore the coming (la palissade!), But maybe janic knows the combination of the next lotto?

Not being a player, I wouldn't even look for it! But if I were a god, for whom time is only a dimension that concerns us only, the combination would have been known to me. But I am not a god… .happily!
To assert that life (or the universe) could not appear by chance, it would be necessary to have a set of universes and to carry out measurements ... and after, only afterwards it would be possible to invalidate such a possibility.

No need to get lost in spooky hypotheses. This is where it happens and this is where the answer can be found. This is what many researchers are racking their brains on… and finding nothing! Even on Mars (apart from the chocolate bar, of course!) But it occupies a few!

Given that we are present on this earth, in the absence of any visible "creator", and taking into account the observation of the phenomena surrounding us, the most probable conclusion (absolute certainties are only the domain of belief) clearly goes in the opposite direction to that of creationists.

On the contrary, we are and are only humans and our only tools are called observation and reason. However, by observation, no one has ever seen life appear from nothing, whether by chance or not. On the other hand, we ourselves are creators as our achievements of all kinds show (including the means used by scientists) and therefore creationists in fact. To take the hypothesis that all things follow the same process is to appeal to reason (logical reasoning). It is a statement, not a claim to a pseudo-scientific explanation.
For the visibility of a creator, the question has already been raised. We rub shoulders, use, lots of objects, realizations of which we will never know the authors who will remain invisible because of this. Do they not exist, however? Reason tells us not!
There it is more precise (but it is not me who invokes chance all the time since I assert that chance does not exist. Everything obeys laws) Now the principle of entropy goes from organized it into chaos and never vice versa. A new, unmaintained and protected car will rust and degrade, but not the other way around.

You make a confusion between energy dissipation and organization.
A zero entropy amounts to a dissipation of zero energy, which in our universe amounts to the "period" known as the "Big Bang", a period after which begins, according to general relativity, the arrow of time (10-43s).

Assumed since no one is able to say and describe what preceded this BB in question. (And 10> 37 degrees Celcius, it's so hot that nothing would have remained, according to our scientific knowledge)
The second principle of thermodynamics states that entropy increases, however this is not necessarily linked to "chaos".
Differences in potential are necessarily necessary to generate energy dissipative structures, we humans are part of it.

Always the same blah that only drowns the fish. Without energy there is no organization, especially if this energy dissipates. However and whatever the explanations of each other, no one can demonstrate that life appeared (was organized) coming from chaos or some entropy.
Regarding chance, as I have already explained a number of times, it is above all a popular name.
In science we will speak more readily of statistical mechanics.

Clearly all the scientists who use the word chance, are ignorant, ignoring that it is statistical mechanics? A change of formulation as a surface technician explains better what a sweeper is. But it is true that this word chance, like the word god, has been eaten with all sauces! :(
Sciences that know only a tiny bit about what already exists (on life) and nothing about how it can exist.

This affirmation is completely free, since here you imply an "unknown science" which would explain everything ... where is this science?

It is not a question of science unknown as unknowable, but our knowledge is only partial, we discover every day what was unknown yesterday and I am not the inventor of this formula according to which we know only in part and therefore incomplete.
Before the invention of the Geiger counter, we did not know what radioactivity was except for certain observable, but not measurable, effects on living organisms. The rational sciences that you invoke did not invent radioactivity, nor gravity, they only observed it with invented devices, there too created, therefore to know their presence and intensity. Likewise we find that this world is highly organized, obeying very precise and rigorous laws which cannot have appeared by chance.
My assertion is based on rational ... and known sciences!

In other words, not much, everything else is human pride and vanity.
Or an interpretation preceding all the others!
Creationism is only an observation that chaos does not appear to be organized and we fall back on Pasteur's experiences, on spontaneous non-generation (that's really scientific because it is verified and double-checked!)

Can you give me historical references regarding creationism?

What creationism? That of religions? I am incompetent about it.
Pasteur's experiments prove nothing, the time scales in the laboratory are far too short to be able to demonstrate anything, the initial conditions for the appearance of life are themselves unknown ...

To say the least about " initial conditions of the appearance of life are themselves unknown ... All the more so if they are unknown (for our measuring devices and researchers of all kinds) because indeed Pasteur's experiments were laboratory experiments whose application to the real world could be falsified, but for as much no phenomenon of to date, this genre has not demonstrated the contrary. It is also just as valid for the evolutionary discourse which starts from an a priori that this life appeared "by chance", say unintentionally, even though in the current state of our knowledge it is rather the opposite which appears, namely an unsuspected complexity yet, so that this life appears like that ...! (to recall the probability calculations mentioned a long time ago.)
on the other hand in computer science, accelerated experiments.

Computer experiments give in the same way as other physical experiences like those of Pasteur or Miller; There will always be something missing or not taken into account out of ignorance or a priori rejection. (even the Higgs boson is not a certainty!)
make it possible to clearly verify that simple laws can emerge from complexity, and from the chaos of order, and vice versa.

The laws of mechanics also bring about the founding of motors from foundries, machining and assembly centers, but not all from mining materials. Again, if our universe is well governed by rigorous cosmic laws, that at the quantum level it is the same, and that everything is perfectly orchestrated, it is not a vanity to mortgage a conductor ( what a few billion people today think, of all intellectual and scientific levels)
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Re: The evolution of biological species and chance ...




by Christophe » 06/06/16, 10:59

This discussion turns to Sophism ... and to personal regulations :( :(

I lock - temporarily at least ...
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