Crisis? No THE crises and it is ONLY our fault!

Current Economy and Sustainable Development-compatible? GDP growth (at all costs), economic development, inflation ... How concillier the current economy with the environment and sustainable development.
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by Christophe » 15/08/09, 10:30

Rulian wrote:Excellent this video, it popularizes the absurdity of the system very well and it is super well done. By cons without the subtitles I am not. It is a submachine gun the girl !! Must hang on! Thanks for the link Christophe.


I was sure you would like it! :D

Yes a real MG the presenter ... without and even with subtitles it's hard to follow ...

I bet that even some Americans or English speakers by birth can't keep up! : Mrgreen:
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by Ahmed » 15/08/09, 11:58

I watched it again, it is true that it is an excellent synthesis and that the condensed format perfectly demonstrates the functioning of the "world organization for the destruction of nature", to use an expression of J .Ellul *!
The proposal part, on the other hand, very / too brief, gives way to an extreme naivety: it suggests that it suffices to instill a few virtuous directives in the right places to correct the whole system. And there, unfortunately we join the rhetoric of Home ...

This perfectly illustrates Ellul's thesis on the independence of the technical system: it is the system that takes control ** of the human (while letting him believe the opposite!). Thus, in this specific case, this document is perfect as long as it is a question of explaining the mechanism, but it completely misses the possibilities of corrections, because it escapes the internal logic of a system, by nature (if we can say!), totalitarian.
So totalitarian, that he needs the challenge to better assert its domination! Thus, in effect, a cultural counterweight is established to better endure its drawbacks.

We can also see it in the vast enterprise of recovering ecological movements, for the benefit of the "green" economy, the new El Dorado.

*in "The political illusion".
** Obviously, this is a shortcut: there is no intentionality on the part of the system.
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by Rulian » 15/08/09, 13:52

I share your comments Ahmed.
(Besides, it's been a while since I told myself that I should read Ellul. Is that good? Not too indigestible? Need your reading tips.)

No, movies and entertainment will never go beyond the stage of kind awareness. The solutions, the altenatives, it's up to people to build them, and there is no ready-made answer, it's a job.

But hey, on the solutions level, the people who make these films should surely make some effort to offer more dense stuff.
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by Christophe » 16/08/09, 10:45

Rulian wrote:But hey, on the solutions level, the people who make these films should surely make some effort to offer more dense stuff.


Dense = heavier? I disagree, because something heavier would affect a much smaller% of the population.

But if we want society to change on its own, a critical mass of the population must be reached. So I think quick spots like commercial ads would reach more people and therefore have more impact!

Theories of other growths and alternative system to "all capitalism à la Ricaine" have been in (dense) books for decades (Ellul for example that I did not know at all with this message from Ahmed) but despite that we never as "badly consumed" as at present!

Question "density", I think you can suggest the one you gave me by msn ... in X episodes ...
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by Ahmed » 16/08/09, 21:50

@ Rulian: I absolutely share your analysis (second paragraph).
I bounce on:
But hey, for sure solutions level, the people who make these films should surely make some effort to offer more dense stuff.

As a pure object of propaganda *, it is knowingly that, on the one hand the criticism is circumscribed in the emotional and that, on the other hand, the remedies evoked refer to an idealistic and magical reversal of the technique which harmful suddenly becomes beneficial.

If not already done, read ** Ilyich which is both very affordable and very deep; J. Ellul is relatively easy to read because it uses a fairly simple vocabulary; it is a very dense thought, of a great intelligence, very rigorous, good, it remains quite abstract (by definition) and of a great meticulousness, but, apart from some (rare) passages a little tangled, it is extremely clear.
In addition to the intrinsic interest, these writings are already quite old and hindsight makes it possible to appreciate the correctness (or not) of certain judgments of the author.
Although not entirely sharing his views in some developments, the relevance and originality of the subject is a permanent treat.
It is necessary, all business ceasing, to read "the political illusion" and "the technician system".

His friend, B.Charbonneau is part of my reading projects: he quotes extensively; André Gorz has built, albeit in a different genre, a powerful reflection on technical society and deserves to be better known…

@ Christophe : The reflection ofHe is purely critical, he has too great respect for human freedom to think for others; moreover, he is convinced that there is no miracle cure that can change the course of fate, apart from a clear and precise awareness of the present situation of man confronted and "subjugated" by the technique.
Given your technical background, you will read with great interest his “Technician System”, a very critical vision, although without any aggressiveness, which will certainly not have been offered to you in your course!

* I'm talking about Home; for the small video, I am more forgiving: I do not think that it is easy, nor even perhaps possible to deal with solutions (which do not exist as such) by this medium which lends itself badly at the level of abstraction required.
** if not, read it again!
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by Rulian » 16/08/09, 22:26

Image
This guy read Illitch and Ellul ... Great mastery of the founding writings of (political) ecology the guy. How it nerds us !! : Mrgreen:

From now on Ahmed, I will call you "Monsieur" and I will greet you!
Image

I'm going to have to catch up.
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by Christophe » 17/08/09, 10:04

Pfff then must have read philosophers or sociologist to get your respect? What youth say! : Mrgreen:

ps: Ahmed often has excellent theses and a great knowledge of "things" ...
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by Ahmed » 17/08/09, 21:35

@ Rulian: Yes, but I haven't (not yet) read Coal and so many others ... sob!
Of course, I do not seek in any way to beat a quantitative record of readings, I seek to understand (a little) what escapes me ... which is very ambitious!
He, seems to me to correspond fairly to this objective, because beyond his assertions (and also what he passes over in silence), his point of view is both very original and perfectly argued.
So, have a good read (and forget the Voodoo! : Lol: )!

@ Christophe:
... and a great knowledge of "things" ...
Thank you! But knowledge is (alas?) Similar to the horizon, which is moving away at the same rate as progression ...
Last edited by Ahmed the 18 / 08 / 09, 18: 53, 1 edited once.
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by Christophe » 17/08/09, 21:42

Ahmed wrote:Thank you! But knowledge is (alas?) Similar to the horizon, which is moving away at the same rate as progression ...


Yes, knowledge calls knowledge!

But it is perhaps one of the “always plus” of man that is the least harmful ... quite the contrary!
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by Christophe » 03/09/09, 09:54

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