Debate on debt and false pretenses

[Philippe Schutt]

Yuck, even more framed than now, we will no longer leave an ultra-state system.

So I prefer a right to work opposable to the state. In return, the elimination of unemployment benefits and of course those who are not going to work are not paid.
We seem to forget that the first reason for work is survival, satisfaction of basic needs, eating, lodging, dressing.

[chatelot16]

+1

I prefer the right to work rather than the right to unemployment benefit

the word moonlighting must disappear ... just the existence of this word proves that there is too much prohibition

[sen-no-sen]

Correct, moreover it is astonishing that political "leaders" often speak of a radical increase in the minimum wage (1500 € / month, I am not quoting anyone ...), whereas such a measure does not change anything, the cost of living increasing at the same time.

+1, measure completely demotic.

The solution lies in a reduction in the cost of living, (...)

How?

Significant steps have to be taken for this, the biggest expense is for housing, and this is a problem that affects everyone.
Households have to go into debt more and more to acquire housing ... or remain a tenant and thus throw the money out of the window ... or end up in "social housing", with all the consequences that this can bring.
Many politicians and associations are asking for ever greater construction of social housing. At first glance, this intention may seem laudable and altruistic, yet this measure only creates a snowball effect: more social housing, therefore more spending , so more debts etc ...

The solution would be for the state to grant credits without interest to all citizens, whatever their age, state of health etc ... in order to become an owner (principle of Islamic credit).
This measure would ultimately cost less than the social housing policy.

[Obamot]

It's not wrong Philippe. But what do you do with freelancers who are looking to launch an activity based on an "unmet" market need ... but who have no start-up capital? It's untapped potential. What do we do, moreover, with artists, poets, inventors and other creatives, whom society really needs, but which leads them to marginality?

We see that there are several ways to integrate into society ... For some it is finding their way in this slippery terrain in the world of independents ... or the choice of delinquency (because a fringe of the population has never managed to integrate into the world of work as it is, being rejected in a thousand and one ways). After we are not surprised by the rise in insecurity, the facts of the problem are very well known. It is time to change the paradigm.

So you have to find the formula. But why see it in the form of a sprawling state system. Not necessarily...

Little idea of ​​the morning
(but which may differ from Bernardd's opinion)
this could possibly be done stupidly by an "accounting" arbitration based on the payment of retirement allowances => whose value would be determined according to the amount of the "Individual contribution / s" AND / OR "participation relating to professional activity". Thus during a voluntary and unpaid participatory action (individual contribution / s) the beneficiary would receive a pro rata share of the universal dividend, but he would have to repay part of the amount to his retirement account ... As the unemployed do when they receive their benefit. Result, it is the citizen who controls himself (and not a new sprawling system set up in an arbitrary or sprawling way).

Thus the "merits" and other "participations" would be inserted / remunerated according to a scale: which already exists, but which should be enriched in an innovative way: that of ... taxes ... But it would be necessary to rename / reorganize it a little as follows ...

Thus, although the amount to be paid would be by retrocession of the dividend, it would fit completely into the current system, in proportion to "the effort provided", finally valued!

As that would go through the account "retirement" and that this one is obligatory, there would not be left behind, nor "forgetting" possible. This could also begin BEFORE integration into the world of work. The citizen could see his contributions to society valued from a young age freely consented, but probably BEFORE adolescence (why not ... there are many child soldiers ... this is proof that children are by nature ready to engage / integrate into society, and that 'they understand a lot more than one thinks => that would be there, without any doubt, a good way to "initiate them to life in society", have a more virtuous behavior, and not towards a "field of challenge ", as is often the case today or the rejection often comes from the fact of the only" law "in force: that of competition. Who also starts at school, should it be remembered?

Obviously, to be entitled to it, it would be necessary to justify benefits / contributions provided, in different forms - and as we see above, the administrative burden would fall to the beneficiaries themselves, simply by means of suitable positions provided in the declaration of income / s - a bit as is required of any company that presents its Balance Sheet + PP accounts to be taxed, this principle would then also enter the sphere of "work of general interest "(if we want to call this new way of looking at things like this ...)

Thus the calculation of the retrocession of the dividend would occur in parallel with that of the calculation of the tax. It would be the same procedure (the payment of tax would obviously be nil in children up to the legal age laid down).

Instead of the current hypocrisy - where people get all kinds of benefits but almost have to hide from it ... - we would be moving towards a situation that is much more transparent and above all less iatroene and more equitable! It would be a situation not so new as that, or the tax body would be there not only to puncture, but would also redistribute to the "contributors" ... Thus the "contribution" would go in both directions => there would be a small arbitration: public contribution VS contribution to the private sector. The word "contribution" would take on all its meaning ...

Obviously any fraud should be penalized, up to and including the exclusion of the right to dividend as an "independent actor" (citizens could no longer be entitled to it unless they were part of a collective structure or having it. ..a job)

Everything remains to be defined, it's just an idea that I find more liberal than liberalism, because even more motivating on a human level ...

Here, we must say that "everything is possible", If we want new ideas to emerge, don't you think?

Because as the judicious example of Sen-no-sen with housing demonstrates, there is a lot of room for progress through the current great waste ...

[sen-no-sen]

(...) there is a lot of room for progress through the current great waste ...

You summed it all up in half a sentence!
I don't think society can really progress without a complete reorganization.
In a logic of decrease (not to type, not to type!), Or rather to "Efficient sobriety", we could have a fantastic margin of progress without having to carve up the planet and its inhabitants.
There are many examples in everyday life, you just have to find them.

[Did67]

Correct, moreover it is astonishing that political "leaders" often speak of a radical increase in the minimum wage (1500 € / month, I am not quoting anyone ...), whereas such a measure does not change anything, the cost of living increasing at the same time.

The economy is a little more complex: it depends on the share of labor in the product.

In the case of bread, this would be quite accurate, even if there is also a significant share of energy, the cost of which depends little on the minimum wage ...

In the case of an Iphone made in China, the increase would be very small: the small part of the price represented by handling in France and the operator's commercial service ...

Basically, it is indeed a "cursor" to arbitrate between labor income and capital income ...

That said, I do not deny the risk of inflation, particularly with regard to the baker of Pagnol, the only one in the village (what is called a monopoly on the scale of the crescent that we will buy on foot on Sunday morning), and who explains to you that the government is murdering him and that he is obliged to increase his prices - even if he does not have an employee paid at minimum wage.

Who saw the price of bread go down, increased when the wheat flamed last year, now that the price went down: see: http://www.terre-net.fr/cours_marches_a ... tions.html

[Did67]

In a logic of decrease (not to type, not to type!), Or rather to "Efficient sobriety", we could have a fantastic margin of progress without having to carve up the planet and its inhabitants.
There are many examples in everyday life, you just have to find them.

Absolutely correct! [with a downside for more than a third of the French population who are doing worse and worse, on basic needs: food, housing, heating, education, health ...]

Note that there is, in principle, no need of the State for that!

By pushing the logic a bit, I even think that we could, if we were convinced [of the decline, of the interest of backing up ...], repay the debt in ten years ...

If the "group of 16" who signed the article in the Nouvel Obs became diminishing radicals, it could even happen very quickly. Who starts to try to convince Peyrelevade and others ???

http://tempsreel.nouvelobs.com/actualit ... -nous.html

[netshaman]

What "insiders" call the "crisis", it is only fair that the result of normal operation of a system which is built on a shaky foundation at the origin and which we no longer control.

Totally agree, but what to change it for, what's the right solution?

Uh ... communism?
Ah but it is without counting on the human factor which makes everything fail and then it has already been tested!

In an ideal world, money would be banned and everyone would work for the common good of humanity without desperately seeking power at any cost.
This corresponds to case number 3 on the island.

A good example of this ideal society is that imagined by Gene Roddenberry in his work Star trek.
Some even accuse it of being a "pink bomb" company.
A little closer to us, some Amazonian tribes set an example.
We should take seed of it if we were not so self-absorbed and materialistic, always chasing after more ... power and money.
This typical behavior comes from psychyatry, it is classified among the obsessive neuroses, our society would it be neurotic?
It reminds me of these gaming sufferers, who can't help but slam all their fortune in the casinos.
Well, this "always more" society is similar.
She always wants more without ever being satiated, like a bulimic who never stops eating until she dies.
If that is not to be neurotic?
Edifying!

To return to the ideal society, before reaching this point, we still have a way to go on the scale of evolution, as long as we are slaves to our primitive instincts, society will remain primitive cqfd.
The first step will already be to acquire common sense and compassion, to throw selfishness into the nettles and to have a better civic sense.

[Obamot]

We should take seed of it if we were not so self-absorbed and materialistic, always chasing after more ... power and money.
This typical behavior comes from psychyatry, it is classified among the obsessive neuroses, our society would it be neurotic?

If you consider society "as an individual", it is not [joke, you might as well have a good laugh at such a ... serious matter]. By cons it is easily demonstrable that behaviors are iatrogenic or psychopatogenic ... (which comes to the same thing) can push certain subjects to the point of homicide!

Are there any among you who still doubt it?

It reminds me of these gaming sufferers, who can't help but slam all their fortune in the casinos.
Well, this "always more" society is similar.

The term "addiction" or drug addiction has already been introduced as an effect in psychopathology (so it is yes).

She always wants more without ever being satiated, like a bulimic who never stops eating until she dies.
If that is not to be neurotic?
Edifying!

Meuh no, what are you talking about ... Are you having ideas? Frankly I play it a little "cynical", but this is where we see that the border is sometimes thin between situations that some might qualify as "normal"(personal desire to consume or not, therefore responsibility for the consumer) and the trap which would cause the drift towards a sort of pseudo" ideal of life "in society could only be fully expressed through consumption.

To return to the ideal society, before arriving there, we still have a way to go on the scale of evolution, as long as we are slaves to our primitive instincts, society will remain primitive cqfd.
The first step will already be to acquire common sense and compassion, to throw out selfishness and to have a better civic sense.

Mwouais, that's right. Indifference is well placed at the top of the pyramid.

[gegyx]

The current crisis very clearly explained,

http://www.youtube.com/embed/TLjq25_ayWM?rel=0