money creation and scam income tax by Étienne Chouard

Current Economy and Sustainable Development-compatible? GDP growth (at all costs), economic development, inflation ... How concillier the current economy with the environment and sustainable development.
User avatar
Obamot
Econologue expert
Econologue expert
posts: 28725
Registration: 22/08/09, 22:38
Location: regio genevesis
x 5538

Re: Money creation and income tax scam by Étienne Chouard




by Obamot » 30/05/16, 10:57

PS: I would even say that this has happened apart from the defects of the current theoretical model (of which the law of supply VS demand is part, it is only one of the cogs) one of the causes is undoubtedly confiscation resources (not only financial) of which states are historically legitimately custodians, since they are both the key element of monetary creation and simultaneously should be the driving force of the economy since at the heart of the entire system legal and economic (I say "should"because they are paradoxically greatly hampered). To have transformed this into an element of speculation is undoubtedly a masterstroke repeated several times, but increases the weight of the inertia of" credit "in the economy (as much in the sector private than public, since the repayment of the debt will go through the payment of our taxes ...), and this is undoubtedly what explains the decline of certain countries from the economic scene, since the weight of speculation suffocates the capacity of a country to face it! (Typical examples are "Pigs"for: Portugal, Ireland, Greece and Spain, to which must be added the USA whose abuse of money printing means that no one knows exactly the amount of their staggering debt!)

And of course, all this ride is not done without complicities ...!
0 x
Ahmed
Econologue expert
Econologue expert
posts: 12298
Registration: 25/02/08, 18:54
Location: Burgundy
x 2963

Re: Money creation and income tax scam by Étienne Chouard




by Ahmed » 30/05/16, 11:11

E.Chouard speaks in this video of "challenging the system fundamentally, structurally, viscerally ...", while on the monetary question in general and that of the debt in particular, his criticism remains at a very superficial level (which is repeated in the heart , from the left (except PS!) to the extreme right).
I readily admit the shocking nature of these phenomena, but imagine that it would be enough to reform this kind of "drifts" * so that everything, as if by magic, can work perfectly within a framework that works fundamentally to an irrational and absurd finality ...

* I write "drifts", because that's how a truncated analysis always presents things.

Above, a message that I have not taken the time to send so far, and therefore anterior to those ofObamot and D'Izentrop.
Insofar as I understand (imperfectly) their answers, I think that the assimilation of the debt to a cause of the perversion of the economy is inadequate, as well as the idea of ​​opposing the virtual creation of money to the action of, I quote: "to create wealth then thanks to the noble work of men".
Basically, the underlying illusion is the same: there would exist an ideal Platonic form of the economy which would never have materialized yet fully, but from which a certain number of recent and current vicissitudes will come to distance us due to the financial or necessarily "corrupt" pension funds, in short, the use of magical thinking and scapegoats ... : roll:

PS **: Why do you believe that Holland, after having declared that "finance, here is the enemy!", hastened to appoint bankers to the highest positions of responsibility?
** San word game!
1 x
"Please don't believe what I'm telling you."
izentrop
Econologue expert
Econologue expert
posts: 13644
Registration: 17/03/14, 23:42
Location: picardie
x 1502
Contact :

Re: Money creation and income tax scam by Étienne Chouard




by izentrop » 30/05/16, 11:34

Ahmed wrote:E. Chouard speaks in this video of "challenging the system fundamentally, structurally, viscerally ...", while on the monetary question in general and that of debt in particular, his criticism remains at a very superficial level (which is taken in the heart, from the left (except PS!) to the extreme right).
That's kind of what I'm trying to explain more awkwardly. Suffice to say the extreme for "the left (except PS!)".
0 x
User avatar
Obamot
Econologue expert
Econologue expert
posts: 28725
Registration: 22/08/09, 22:38
Location: regio genevesis
x 5538

Re: Money creation and income tax scam by Étienne Chouard




by Obamot » 30/05/16, 11:37

Well, if so, we are waiting for your explanations on the mechanisms of the debt, and especially why are you trying to make us confuse VS effects effects by a bias of selection?
► View Text

Ahmed wrote:E.Chouard speaks in this video of "challenging the system fundamentally, structurally, viscerally ...", while on the monetary question in general and that of the debt in particular, his criticism remains at a very superficial level (which is repeated in the heart , from the left (except PS!) to the extreme right).
I readily admit the shocking nature of these phenomena, but imagine that it would be enough to reform this kind of "drifts" * so that everything, as if by magic, can work perfectly within a framework that works fundamentally to an irrational and absurd finality ...

* I write "drifts", because that's how a truncated analysis always presents things.

Above, a message that I have not taken the time to send so far, and therefore anterior to those ofObamot and D'Izentrop.
Insofar as I understand (imperfectly) their answers, I think that the assimilation of the debt to a cause of the perversion of the economy is inadequate, as well as the idea of ​​opposing the virtual creation of money to the action of, I quote: "to create wealth then thanks to the noble work of men".
Basically, the underlying illusion is the same: there would exist an ideal Platonic form of the economy which would never have materialized yet fully, but from which a certain number of recent and current vicissitudes will come to distance us due to the financial or necessarily "corrupt" pension funds, in short, the use of magical thinking and scapegoats ... : roll:

PS **: Why do you believe that Holland, after having declared that "finance, here is the enemy!", hastened to appoint bankers to the highest positions of responsibility?
** San word game!

You do well to specify (and I waited a little that you do it) because I was only reacting to the words of Izentrop (all more contradictory than the others) since it does not even seem to see the aspect superficial, as long as it appears that he considers the current economic model as valid! Since in a certain way he defends it, without revealing the substance of his thought. I was just trying to put his syllabus back on the rails of the telescoping of his contradictions : Mrgreen:
0 x
Ahmed
Econologue expert
Econologue expert
posts: 12298
Registration: 25/02/08, 18:54
Location: Burgundy
x 2963

Re: Money creation and income tax scam by Étienne Chouard




by Ahmed » 30/05/16, 12:35

The psychic bias that leads many to consider the current economic model as valid (in addition to the lack of imagination and historical ignorance) lies in the opposition between a period of local expansion of capitalism (= market economy) after the war and stagnation, then regression at the turn of the 80 years completely inexplicable, both for common sense (which has a linear view of history) and for classical economics (which only thinks of driving the nail in take the maximum advantage to impose austerity).

What is hardly conceivable, a priori, is that the systemic blockage may result from the success of capitalism to accumulate a volume never reached so far of abstract value, but that this mass of fictitious / real money no longer finds material to to reproduce otherwise than by very inadequate devices.

Therefore, it is tempting to find explanations less complicated and less abstract, the discourse on the "good economy of the honest creators of wealth" of yesteryear versus the "banksters" and other speculators is there to provide for it. Not that there is no abuse, but, on the one hand, these abuses are an integral part of the rules of the game (and many of those who denounce them would be more indulgent if they benefited from it!), On the other On the other hand, these opportunistic maneuvers only conceal the efficient causes ...
It is heartbreaking to give in to this overwhelming tendency of humanity to always look for perpetrators to stigmatize, rather than wonder about this truly strange phenomenon that drives each of us, as the unconscious agent of the system, to act out detriment of the community, so of ourselves.
Some denounce the explanation by the "system" as simplistic, and they are partly right: it is a way of speaking, the system contradictorily presents itself as perfectly external to the subjects, but it is also a creation. of these subjects, since it is a hypostasis. This explains the unfounded fight between accusers of the system and denunciators of the process.
0 x
"Please don't believe what I'm telling you."
izentrop
Econologue expert
Econologue expert
posts: 13644
Registration: 17/03/14, 23:42
Location: picardie
x 1502
Contact :

Re: Money creation and income tax scam by Étienne Chouard




by izentrop » 30/05/16, 12:41

And in clear? because here I am dropped!
Ahmed wrote:a stagnation, then regression at the turn of the 80 years completely inexplicable
Beginning of awareness that we are moving towards the mature, but no solution?
0 x
Christophe
Moderator
Moderator
posts: 79126
Registration: 10/02/03, 14:06
Location: Greenhouse planet
x 10974

Re: Money creation and income tax scam by Étienne Chouard




by Christophe » 30/05/16, 12:52

izentrop wrote:It's not with speeches like Chouard's that you'll be able to prove that to me.
It should be possible to measure the benefit / risk balance to know exactly what the banks earn with the public debt.
What is the source of this curve?

Image


Common sense? : Cheesy:
0 x
User avatar
Obamot
Econologue expert
Econologue expert
posts: 28725
Registration: 22/08/09, 22:38
Location: regio genevesis
x 5538

Re: Money creation and income tax scam by Étienne Chouard




by Obamot » 30/05/16, 13:01

Do not ask him too much, I think ...

Ahmed wrote:As far as I understand (imperfectly) their answers
On the background
My introduction left little doubt that I am not fooled by the situation by speaking "alibi".
Ahmed wrote:assimilation of debt to a cause of the perversion of the economy

Perhaps I did not express myself well, but I was only describing the system as it would be in an underlying way and as one decrypts some (while trying to denounce some cogs). If the idea of ​​finding real causes is present in my mind it is not for all that I would refuse other formulations: we are in an equation with several unknowns and ladders of understanding way Russian dolls.

I said "especially"and hit the nail on the head with the word"absurd"... I throw scuds on the principle (admitted!) of the squandering of raw materials via their price arbitrarily fixed by the" markets ", then finally depict some tricks of the mechanisms of the money-debt, without however, advance on some substitutes ... proof is that I do not identify at all with the current model : Shock: : Mrgreen: Far from Ahmed, far from it ....

Do not be mistaken about the assumptions between effects VS causes! If on the one hand I gave very partial tracks of debunking, in front we have slogans thrown into pasture, with no reasoning expressed behind (as usual) - all this in a purely illustrative way - as to sow confusion between cause (s) VS effects)a troll can do that very well. : Cheesy: The question is: how does that move the debate forward?

When I speak of "noble work of men", I put it in relief compared to all the masquerade which surrounds the EXPLOITATION of the results produced by real productive trades and useful to all. Probably more than fifty percent of human activity is parasitic, predatory ...!

However, I have not defined what shape a "ideal economy could have ", platonic or not ... (uh, who would think that, but thank you if you think I would be eligible for this task: current disaster you probably would have seen nothing ... nothing ... worse ... , mwouahahaha ... Should not trust me, I would go open all the chests to give money to the needy, this kind of things Robin Hood way ...)

Yes, we live in beautiful illusions (I do not know, I'll be careful anyway, I'll come ask you Ahmded advice) : Cheesy:
0 x
Ahmed
Econologue expert
Econologue expert
posts: 12298
Registration: 25/02/08, 18:54
Location: Burgundy
x 2963

Re: Money creation and income tax scam by Étienne Chouard




by Ahmed » 30/05/16, 13:39

IzentropI have already developed these questions on the site many times; I take them in the previous message in a condensed form and the simplest possible ...
Just for you ( 8) I am trying to summarize:
- 1) increase in productivity => decrease in commodity prices; => unemployment
- 2) unemployment => shrinkage of the market for solvent consumers, when more must be sold, due to the fall in the unit price of goods ...
This => inability to achieve the operating condition of the increased reproduction of capital and therefore recourse to the financial industry to compensate for the failure of the manufacturing industry, which makes it possible to postpone the systemic collapse to a somewhat later term . Only fictitious capital is henceforth able to prolong the illusion, and the return to a "virtuous" economy a vain chimera with which all those (and there are many!) Are infatuated who do not understand the close lineage, so as not to not to say the identity, between these two forms of economy (insofar as they pursue exactly the same finality).

PS: I have a little delay, I do not take into account for the moment the new messages ...
0 x
"Please don't believe what I'm telling you."
izentrop
Econologue expert
Econologue expert
posts: 13644
Registration: 17/03/14, 23:42
Location: picardie
x 1502
Contact :

Re: Money creation and income tax scam by Étienne Chouard




by izentrop » 30/05/16, 13:49

Christophe wrote:Common sense? : Cheesy:
Give credit to this populist Chouard, that's common sense too? http://tempsreel.nouvelobs.com/societe/ ... ouard.html
0 x

 


  • Similar topics
    Replies
    views
    Last message

Back to "Economy and finance, sustainability, growth, GDP, ecological tax systems"

Who is online ?

Users browsing this forum : No registered users and 190 guests