All about money creation

Current Economy and Sustainable Development-compatible? GDP growth (at all costs), economic development, inflation ... How concillier the current economy with the environment and sustainable development.
bernardd
Econologue expert
Econologue expert
posts: 2278
Registration: 12/12/09, 10:10
x 1




by bernardd » 21/02/11, 10:36

Philippe Schutt wrote:we will end up recovering communist utopia ...


It would be nice not to go into emotional mode.

An equi-distributed creation of the official currency, is a process all that is capitalist and democratic, that corresponds to the fact that each citizen has an action of the nation and receives a distributed dividend between the actions.

Philippe Schutt wrote:For the creation of money, the fact of introducing it by the banks makes those who invest in profit more than those who do nothing.


But one can quite imagine that it is the banks that make the monthly payment of equi-distributed monetary creation.

How will this affect the return on investments? Everyone can always invest wherever they want.

On the other hand, it would be necessary to formalize a simple rule which is nevertheless obvious: "no one can lend or sell what he does not have".

It would be more effective not to mix everything.
0 x
See you soon !
pb2488
Grand Econologue
Grand Econologue
posts: 837
Registration: 17/08/09, 13:04




by pb2488 » 21/02/11, 18:07

bernardd wrote:Given the emotional reactions, I see that the word "egalitarian" has an emotional connotation. Yet I used it in a very technical way. I should rather say: "currency with equi-distributed creation". Read the link just above.
I still have a little trouble grasping. We speak to the faith of money creation and exchange / gift. These are 2 different subjects, it seems to me.

bernardd wrote:If everyone is free, why would not he change his job? Unless he is not so free as that ...
It's going to be the abandonment of hard jobs and there is a package. Moreover, if there is more exchange but gift, why would people continue to work?
0 x
"The truth can not be defined as the majority opinion:
The truth is what follows from the observation of facts. "
bernardd
Econologue expert
Econologue expert
posts: 2278
Registration: 12/12/09, 10:10
x 1




by bernardd » 22/02/11, 10:16

pb2488 wrote:
bernardd wrote:Given the emotional reactions, I see that the word "egalitarian" has an emotional connotation. Yet I used it in a very technical way. I should rather say: "currency with equi-distributed creation". Read the link just above.
I still have a little trouble grasping. We speak to the faith of money creation and exchange / gift. These are 2 different subjects, it seems to me.


Absolutely, that's why for my part I made 2 separate points. But they can coexist in real life as well as in this thread, right?

bernardd wrote:If everyone is free, why would not he change his job? Unless he is not so free as that ...
It's going to be the abandonment of hard jobs and there is a package. Moreover, if there is more exchange but gift, why would people continue to work? [/ Quote]

Absolutely, when I do something that interests me, is it still work? I can also find a solution so that I do not have to do a task that I do not like.

If, for example, I found a way to shred all the organic "waste" in my house and then burn it in a suitable stove, not only would I not need to become a garbage collector, but I would also not need to. drilling for oil, killing people in other areas and refining and then burning oil, and paying for it all ... So indeed I should think otherwise.

As shown by the very concrete example of the study on parents' delay in nurseries, in this video: http://vimeo.com/16999193
when I pay, I discharge myself of all morals. And in this the presence of money is harmful, not in itself, but by the behavior it induces.
0 x
See you soon !
User avatar
Obamot
Econologue expert
Econologue expert
posts: 28725
Registration: 22/08/09, 22:38
Location: regio genevesis
x 5538




by Obamot » 22/02/11, 20:09

Yes, following the long debate the other day, I understood a little better ^^

In short, there are three principles to achieve this:
- the minimum wage guarantees whatever its activities (it will reassure us ...).
- the universal dividend (distribution to the citizens).
- new laws that should go with it, including the one that would prohibit selling what does not belong to us ... Ethically, in principle everyone should already apply that ... universally! ^^

What else? : Mrgreen: Not a small deal anyway ...
0 x
User avatar
Obamot
Econologue expert
Econologue expert
posts: 28725
Registration: 22/08/09, 22:38
Location: regio genevesis
x 5538




by Obamot » 23/02/11, 12:50

Creation of an alternative system and parity
Two questions that came to me this morning, compared to practical cases! The Canton of Neuchâtel celebrates its millennium, and they decided to coin money.
So I told myself that a system based on "the gift" (or something else ...) would probably be reduced to appearing in all countries at the same time! If not, how to have a "parity" in trade between countries with a system and others remained in the currency.

Neuchâtel and its millennium, a former coinage reappears: the "batz"
http://www.rfj.ch/rtn/Actualite/Regiona ... -Batz.html

300'000 pieces of 1 batz would be created, with a parity of 1 beats for 2 CHF, either for a value of 600'000 Swiss francs (or 300'000 beat Neuchâtelois ^^). While the source above states: “Sixty thousand 5 Batz coins were minted at the Faude & Huguenin company in Le Locle. They will be put into circulation at a price of 10 francs each ”. Maybe it will be both? And even postage stamps?

In any case, they obtained the authorization because they obtained the guarantee of the "Coop Bank" that it agrees to exchange them for Swiss francs. No doubt they had to study the questions from the legal / legal point of view, let alone dig into the law! Good opportunity to ask them questions ...

First remark, it is not forbidden to coin money (although commemorative), even in a country that already has his! This is very interesting, because it shows the cultural value of money (remembered in the Middle Ages the prestige that meant to beat its currency, symbol of independence and sovereignty ....). So we can not separate that from "identity". Moreover, in the semantics, we speak well of the fact that a currency is "attacked", which makes even feel the dimension "military" of its materiality!

It comes to me, then, that the coin symbol is more of a unit that defends collective values ​​and strength and a gift that is more akin to volunteering and that defends personal values ​​and choice. But if that's the case, it's even more shameful to create money from debt! So that does not solve anything ...

Second remark: what about the monastic creation in this case? Since for sure, this is not money creation through the debt ... Understand how they came to it, if necessary through legislation: give the answer to the enigma posed by this process, and at least will allow to use the pretext to inquire with the bank of the mechanism which prevailed in this case and summarized by these questions:
- if it is not around the debt principle, to create Batz for what to do in the economic sense, and on what basis in the legal sense?
- coins should be issued, yes but from what "wealth" or "mechanism" bank? None or from a sum of CHF 300'000.-? Even if I suppose that it is, it would not be "the game", they would have created a currency without economic foundation!
- to stir the knife in the wound, we should ask them the question of "bank charges" in batz. And above all, what about a loan in this currency, ha, ha, ha ..... : Mrgreen:
0 x
bernardd
Econologue expert
Econologue expert
posts: 2278
Registration: 12/12/09, 10:10
x 1




by bernardd » 24/02/11, 17:51

Obamot wrote:In short, there are three principles to achieve this:
- the minimum wage guarantees whatever its activities (it will reassure us ...).
- the universal dividend (distribution to the citizens).
- new laws that should go with it, including the one that would prohibit selling what does not belong to us ... Ethically, in principle everyone should already apply that ... universally!


To complete :

- for 2: any creation of official money must be equi-distributed among all citizens. This distribution may be called the universal dividend.

- 3: "prohibition of to lend and to sell what does not belong to us "

and in supplement:

- appointment of legislative representatives by lottery, for example the popular swearing assizes, in France: they are already entrusted with our lives.

- non-zero monetary valuation of the human capital of employees in the share capital of companies, with corresponding allocation of voting rights at general meetings and dividends of annual profits, as for other types of contributions in cash or in kind.

With these 5 points, the economic system would be very quickly balanced and stabilized.
0 x
See you soon !
User avatar
Obamot
Econologue expert
Econologue expert
posts: 28725
Registration: 22/08/09, 22:38
Location: regio genevesis
x 5538




by Obamot » 24/02/11, 19:01

bernardd wrote:- non-zero monetary valuation of human capital employees in the capital social companies, with corresponding allocation of voting rights at the general meeting and dividends of the annual profit, as for other types of contributions in cash or in kind.


Yes, but human beings are not perfect ... we can not deny (among other things) the importance of "Motivation" of the man at work: in the "quality of the progress of companies" whether private or public ... I dared not use the term of "performance" dear to the financial world, but basically it starts from the same principle: the "Need for development"which is subordinated of itself by our "individual priorities and natural reflexes" to the deepest motivations of the human being: according to A. Maslow ie "The pyramid of needs")

(In order not to enter the "political" terrain, you do not deny the cultural impact, is that it?)

On the other hand, it must be recognized that "the performance" is often a "dead end" way, as soon as it finds its limits for example in this kind of "betrayal": unfair dismissals, offshoring all over the place, and all that kind of things that run whole careers, including still unfulfilled contracts and more commonly acts of pure predation within companies (even outside) that become the cause of pathologies whose "theoretical model of psychiatry" refutes existance even by a kind of shameless autism (and I weigh my words) ...

You will tell me that the system based on the universal dividend is precisely there to deal with this type of abuse. However, there are still many points to solve, to get into practice.

bernardd wrote:With these 5 points, the economic system would be very quickly balanced and stabilized.

Indeed, there is food for thought, and "legislative representatives by lot, for example the popular jurors of assizes" are great ideas as much as conditions sine qua non in view of the interests at stake ... But difficult to put into practice if said called citizens did not have the prerequisites to bring expertise "who is well". In short, presented like this, this new paradigm will certainly be felt as so many "revolutionary measures" by many people in civil society and elsewhere ... : Mrgreen: And since citizens could intervene / influence in this way, in the economic life with consequences up to the decision-making level at the highest level in the companies, needless to say that whole sections of the current society, until the conception Even "private property" and operating methods in the "world of the world" would be severely tested in such a societal configuration.

Notice all, that Dominique de Villepin has announced tonight in the journal TF1 / 20h00, that he has the ambition to offer 30% of employees in the Board of Directors ... Because he denounces "the parody of dialogue" who reigns there. For him, "the Republic must have hands"that is, sufficient means to be effective in the social field. "It's my obsession: which hands in the company, which hands in the suburbs?"
http://www.nonfiction.fr/article-4212-r ... ee_moi.htm
0 x
bernardd
Econologue expert
Econologue expert
posts: 2278
Registration: 12/12/09, 10:10
x 1




by bernardd » 25/02/11, 20:26

Obamot wrote:
bernardd wrote:- non-zero monetary valuation of human capital employees in the capital social companies, with corresponding allocation of voting rights at the general meeting and dividends of the annual profit, as for other types of contributions in cash or in kind.


Yes, but human beings are not perfect ... we can not deny (among other things) the importance of "Motivation" of the man at work:


Exactly, the motivation not to pay (did you look http://vimeo.com/16999193 ?), participation in decisions seems to be an essential element for motivation. And profit-sharing an essential balance element.

ACOME for example has become the leading producer of fiber optics, through innovation. And in fact the only French, by the various restructuring of others. But ACOME is a cooperative: is it a coincidence? They are also very innovative in heated floors.

It can be noted that in addition, the value of the human capital of a human is evaluated at 0. Zero. Niet. Nothing. So in a society where decisions are valued by monetary value, it makes sense that human capital does not influence decisions.

The solution is simple: give a non-zero monetary value to human capital, and all current economic mechanisms will shift their current "dynamic equilibrium" in favor of human capital.

Let's say that each human is worth 1M €. Any company employing a human as an employee for 35h per week of 168h (21%) must integrate this human capital into its share capital for a value of 210000 €. And decrease its share capital by the same value when this employee leaves the company.

It's easy to do, and it will be effective.

Obamot wrote:Indeed, there is food for thought, and "legislative representatives by lot, for example the popular jurors of assizes" are great ideas as much as conditions sine qua non in view of the interests at stake ... But difficult to put into practice if said called citizens did not have the prerequisites to bring expertise "who is well".


There are currently 577 deputies and 343 senators: we are beyond the representative sample of French according to the pollsters.

I would be curious to know the skills, other than the electoral charisma, of the current legislators.

In addition, we do not ask them so much to be competent, as to be "representatives", animator of the voters, to speak the truth, and to instruct the problems and the possible solutions. I dream of a "forum legislative ", on the model of this forum, where the problems are described, analyzed and possible solutions described. The "representatives" are not responsible for "giving their opinion", but to ensure that all the analyzes of the problem and the solutions are well presented, before proposing decisions.
0 x
See you soon !
User avatar
Obamot
Econologue expert
Econologue expert
posts: 28725
Registration: 22/08/09, 22:38
Location: regio genevesis
x 5538




by Obamot » 25/02/11, 22:40

I'm going to be a little "contradictory zentil", even if I believe that we must explore new ways of living in society, just not to "Empty the debate" by making big friendly slaps on the stomach by congratulation :))) ... or that it is adrift for "passionate" motivations or even less acceptable motivations ... :)

It should have done a little Human Resources (HR) to understand that it is not so "simple", which does not mean that what you say does not fall under the corner of common sense!

The vast majority of employees only work by what is known as "The need for restraint". We are all at this stage, where we have already been there ... Even if our parents told us to get up to go to school ... etc! In the same vein .... What you say is true but is not necessarily applicable to everyone. Some non-exhaustive examples:

Motivation
... but I did not talk about salary motivation ?! ;)

Participation in decisions
... there are many people who are not at all interested in "taking part in decisions".
... among those who are not, there are some that work only by their own "need of restraint" .... starting with this spring that makes them get up in the morning ....

Profit-sharing
... most people are very carefree, "profit sharing" even if they would like it when you talk to them, go over their heads!

Cooperative / s and other legal status
These principles do not escape employees in companies. Although there are improvements, according to Herzberg, these are generally short-lived. It is a work to be constantly put back on the carpet ... as discussed the other time ...

Human capital
This is indeed the worst in our societies, but it is due to the above and the "theoretical model". There is no room for "others" from which contexts and situations that can lead to "sress" (suicide due to stress).

"Dynamic balance"
I do not know, I have not studied this question at all. But qmm, considering the above, everything would not work as well as you would expect and as fast. Look with the dictatorships, in Egypt it took 40ans ... and again ... they took advantage of the inertia created by Tunisia, which just showed that it was possible! And the case is not over ... People who lived under duress, even if it was difficult to tolerate, then claim also situations of "constraints", it reassures them is it's always better than d ' to be left to oneself! I know, it's terrible to hear that for some ... And yet if we think about it, it's like this! You just have to remember the fake "Game of Truth" or something ... that consisted of inflicting electric shocks in case of false answers ... until death follows! Fictitious game or the participants, would give death without the knowledge of their own free will ... Without knowing that it was "only" a sociological experiment of very bad taste.
So the dynamic equilibrium in the wrong hands ...

Value of "human capital" => should we give a "price" to human life and how?
We should ask what the ladies of the Bois de Boulogne think? ;-) without laughing, the commodification of humans is a delicate subject, which should not be taken lightly, there can be perverse effects!
Is this a good solution? Doesn't that risk rotting the human spirit much more around the commodification of certain "forced laborers" by attributing to them a sort of "fair price" !? Ok, that's better ... because today there is nothing ... and because the employer has to think twice before dismissing! But seen from the angle of constraint, this reverses the situation by giving a "means of constraint" to those who precisely "need this need of constraint" to take charge! So no, not a simple solution, but to think about. Because as it is, I don't feel it is applicable. Perhaps this is where we should think about a concept around "universal capital", to be paid into a kind of old-age insurance ... or something? Because it can also be a possibility of employees blackmailing their company ... and there it begins to reverse the "roles"! The question is to know what maturity it would take to manage this in a company!
Besides, I note the paradox of giving a pecuniary value to the life of a worker, whereas the goal would be to do without ... money: happy paradigm :-)

Electoral charism
One point!
Mebon, they are not necessarily all ripoux ... Even if sometimes their decisions elude us, precisely because we do not have the capacity to appreciate all the merits of their decision, if only for lack of training or by ignorance of all the statistical parameters ... (pb: fate of this body ^^)

Representatives facilitators-voters?
Why not? The Swiss army had found the solution by hiring specialists recruited on the basis of their professional skills in the various "weapons". The plan you suggest would work very well if we drew lots among people who already have a certain background (they would obviously not need to be part of the elites, nor would they have to stay in their post for several terms => except to be "re-elected" according to their know-how by officiating as "advisers" => which would impose solutions of "mixed promotions")
0 x
pb2488
Grand Econologue
Grand Econologue
posts: 837
Registration: 17/08/09, 13:04




by pb2488 » 25/02/11, 23:32

bernardd wrote:
Obamot wrote:In short, there are three principles to achieve this:
- the minimum wage guarantees whatever its activities (it will reassure us ...).
- the universal dividend (distribution to the citizens).
- new laws that should go with it, including the one that would prohibit selling what does not belong to us ... Ethically, in principle everyone should already apply that ... universally!


To complete :

- for 2: any creation of official money must be equi-distributed among all citizens. This distribution may be called the universal dividend.

- 3: "prohibition of to lend and to sell what does not belong to us "

and in supplement:

- appointment of legislative representatives by lottery, for example the popular swearing assizes, in France: they are already entrusted with our lives.

- non-zero monetary valuation of the human capital of employees in the share capital of companies, with corresponding allocation of voting rights at general meetings and dividends of annual profits, as for other types of contributions in cash or in kind.

With these 5 points, the economic system would be very quickly balanced and stabilized.


We are very close to a communist system, it seems to me.
If without doing anything, people have what it takes to survive, I do not see what will motivate them to work / produce.
0 x
"The truth can not be defined as the majority opinion:

The truth is what follows from the observation of facts. "

 


  • Similar topics
    Replies
    views
    Last message

Back to "Economy and finance, sustainability, growth, GDP, ecological tax systems"

Who is online ?

Users browsing this forum : No registered users and 103 guests