The biodegradability of detergents Greenest ... or not ... not great ..

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Re: The biodegradability of detergents ... green or not ... not t




by Christophe » 15/11/06, 15:26

Woodcutter wrote:Does the test measure the toxicity detergents on the algae or the fact that, on the contrary, they facilitate their proliferation which is the opposite effect and which is caused by an excess nutrient which is commonly the phosphorus ? (but there may be others)


For me it is clear that this is the second hypothesis (I worked 2 year in aquaculture in micro algae production and we used phosphate in fertilizer + Nitrates + ologoelements + ... top secret : Cheesy: ) ...
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by Woodcutter » 15/11/06, 15:56

Christophe wrote:[..] Otherwise, I did not understand this remark either, because a WWTP is precisely supposed to TREAT (and make more or less "rejectable" in nature) water, isn't it? That is to say by ridding them not only of sludge or bacteria but also chemical filth ...

Another falling illusion?
A WWTP must meet targets for abatement (reduction in the quantities transported) of various compounds carried by the water passing through it, or maximum concentration of the effluent.

For example, for BOD5, it is necessary to reach 70 or 80% reduction, or 25 mg / l of maximum concentration.
For COD, it will be 75% or 125 mg /.
For MES, 90% or 35 mg / l.

For very fragile receiving media, we will go down to 15 mg / l, 50 mg / l and 20 mg / l

For nitrogen compounds, 70% or 10 to 15 mg / l and for phosphorus, 80% or 1 to 2 mg / l.

And this on a number of samples worth approximately 7 to 8% of the total therefore roughly 92 to 93% of the annual operating time.

Ministry of Ecology and Sustainable Development - Collection of texts on sanitation - Version 5 - February 2004


Regarding the other types of pollutants, there is no general objective to respect, for example concerning microbiological pollution, except in the case of the presence of bathing areas or sampling for drinking water.

But anyway, by its mode of operation, a WWTP eliminates a good part of the pathogenic bacteria during the cycle undergone by the water which passes through it.
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by Christophe » 15/11/06, 16:05

Uh ... thanks for the explanations but I'm not very familiar with the various chemical abbreviations ...

Ok for the reduction of a certain% but the product "pollutants" is not included in the products to "treat" ...: Cheesy: This may be the case for certain detergent compounds ...
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toxic detergents




by dupontelle » 15/11/06, 16:44

Finally remarks on the subject, excuse me for my previous email, it is true that it was not necessarily appropriate. In short, there are comments and it is interesting to be able to debate this article together, which leads me to ask myself quite a few questions.
I was also wondering about the volume of detergents arriving at a treatment plant and I think that the article omitted a certain number of data.

In France, approximately 5 billion detergents are produced per year
An inhabitant consumes on average 150 liters of water per day, i.e. for a population of 60 million inhabitants: 3,285 billion m3 of water
If we do not take into account rainwater and only discharges, there are therefore 1,5 detergents per m3 of water in the treatment plant.
I do not think that this rate is at the origin of such a toxicity.
Does anyone know the rate at which a detergent becomes toxic?
Thank you
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Re: toxic detergents




by Woodcutter » 15/11/06, 23:38

Christophe wrote:Uh ... thanks for the explanations but I'm not very familiar with the various chemical abbreviations ...

BOD5 = biological oxygen demand at 5 days, it measures the amount of oxygen that will be consumed by living organisms to degrade oxidizable organic compounds
COD = chemical oxygen demand, it is the same but it is the quantity of oxygen that it takes to chemically oxidize all oxidizable compounds.
MES: suspended matter, these are all particles light enough to be transported in a stream of water, whatever their nature

Christophe wrote:Ok for the reduction of a certain% but the product "pollutants" is not included in the products to "treat" ...: Cheesy: This may be the case for certain detergent compounds ...
Well yes, there is no legal obligation ...
But some products actually degrade under the conditions encountered in WWTPs.
The problem is that we don't really know what's going on according to the article.

dupontelle wrote:Finally remarks on the subject, excuse me for my previous email, it is true that it was not necessarily appropriate.
It's a bit what I blame for a first message ... :? Not having taken the time to do some reading on this forum to appreciate the atmosphere and perceive the tone ...

dupontelle wrote:If we do not take into account rainwater and only discharges, there are therefore 1,5 detergents per m3 of water in the treatment plant.
Modern WWTPs are not supposed to harvest EP, even if connections "guaranteed to be 100% free of parasites" exist only in Bouygues' dreams ...

dupontelle wrote:I do not think that this rate is at the origin of such a toxicity.
Does anyone know the rate at which a detergent becomes toxic?
Thank you
A modern machine consumes about 50 l per wash, but part of it is very lightly charged water, from the second rinse ...
Finally if we start on 50 l, that makes 75 l of detergent for 1000 l of EU, a dilution rate of 13, lower than what mentioned in the article.
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by dupontelle » 16/11/06, 09:09

yes, we realize that there is a calculation error in this article.
The company novamex speaks of an error of a coefficient of 1000 when passing the percentage in washing baths (allowing to classify the level of toxicity) in mg / L. I think they must have received the test report, and that indeed confirms that the detergents are not all toxic.
http://www.metrofrance.com/fr/article/2 ... /index.xml

In addition, you're right, we do not address in this article the issue of biodegradability of the detergents tested, because at this level it did not go in their direction.
We know very well that a green detergent has a higher biodegradability rate than a conventional detergent, for example: ecover speaks of a biodegradability of 95% and the green tree of ultimate biodegradability in aerobic and anaerobic conditions.

I hope that this laboratory will quickly realize its error in order to sincerely offer consumers less polluting laundry
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by jean63 » 01/02/07, 09:45

Do you know the detergents and cleaning products of this German manufacturer (fully biodegradable, it would have been tested on the German market but not known in France; no pollution unlike other green products offered on the French market).
Home delivery ; efficient washing / I tested =>
http://www.hakafrance.fr/
http://mcsguides.free.fr/Hakawerk1.htm
http://blog.aufeminin.com/blog/seeone_6 ... rk-respect

Now you know almost everything ......... what is certain is that it is not known to INC et Cie and it is not in their tests.

You have to see what the "EMAS ecological label" corresponds to .... it's there =>
http://www.emas.org.uk/
Last edited by jean63 the 01 / 02 / 07, 10: 17, 3 edited once.
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by denis » 01/02/07, 09:59

the solution:

we get the ash from our barbecue (or fireplace for the lucky ones who have it), it sieves it to remove the charcoal. We then take 2 glasses (Durale type) of ash that is put in 1 liter of water. Let stand 24h stirring occasionally. Filter the mixture (it must be transparent and slightly yellow) and put 1 glass in the laundry compartment. We can then perfume the linen with a few drops of essential oil (lavender for example)
If you do not trust (like me at first), you can try the first time with dish towels, towels, etc. then go to the laundry.
I advise to be careful and not overestimate the amount of ash (type: I put more, it will wash better!) Because the mixture, if too concentrated, may be aggressive to the fingers (loss of fingerprints to high concentration !!!!!).
We are very happy and our laundry is clean, does not smell of smoke (we do not put essential oil) and all that for not a round


I don't sell anything, even if someone wants to buy me ash : Cheesy:

we talk about organic laundry, nuts, but not that !!, because it does not benefit anyone, except the user and nature!
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by jean63 » 01/02/07, 10:21

we get the ash from our barbecue (or fireplace for the lucky ones who have it), it sieves it to remove the charcoal. We then take 2 glasses (Durale type) of ash that is put in 1 liter of water. Let stand 24h stirring occasionally. Filter the mixture (it must be transparent and slightly yellow) and put 1 glass in the laundry compartment. We can then perfume the linen with a few drops of essential oil (lavender for example)


It was known to our grandmothers in the countryside.

To be truly "green", you should:

- stop using washing machines (electric), large consumers of energy - and do the laundry in washing machines with ash !!!! : Mrgreen: : Lol:
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