The industrial obsolescence, history of deception

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Re: The industrial obsolescence, history of deception




by Christophe » 29/12/17, 14:12

Remundo wrote:but more generally, all these smartphones at X00 € are scams. In my opinion it comes out at € 50 in cost price of Chinese factories. : roll:


Ah the myth of traders are all scammers that stands out ...That’s sorry Remundo, but that’s a stupid remark :( we see that you have never been a trader or independent ... I was 10 years so I feel a bit targeted!

Already we must add the import costs and customs tax. From "your" 50 leaving the factory in China, we quickly reach 80-90 prices excluding VAT in Europe or even more ... There are already intermediaries who want their share! Unless you have your own factory in China, then it becomes interesting (ok this is the case with Apple, but here I am defending "small businesses")

And if you do not make 2,5 to 3 of coefficient between the purchase price HT and of sale TTC, bin you do not come out.

So, in France and Western Europe (where companies are massacred by social charges, employers, taxes and duties ...) a smartphone bought 90 € HT must be sold between 250 and 300 € TTC at the "normal" price. (excluding promotions or sales) ... of course some make more coef, but 2,5 to 3 is the bare minimum to survive ...

Those who are "shocked" by this reasoning (oh ugly salespeople, all scammers! They make a lot of money) are dirty idiots who never had the courage to go into business themselves!

Indeed; on this coefficient 3, only about 1/3 comes back to the boss (and again 30% is very often it is rather 10 to 15%, the larger the company and the higher the product prices the more low, in construction this is a few% or even less than 1%) ... I'm talking about all charges deducted!

So the smartphone sold in China for 50 €, here 300 € including tax will bring less than 50 € "in the pocket" of its seller (maybe 20 to 30 € ...) ... we understand why the Chinese are more motivated than us to work !!

Otherwise you want to talk about the RSI? Taxation on turnover and not on profit made in Sarkozy !! To kill entrepreneurship there is no better! : Mrgreen: : Mrgreen: : Mrgreen:

ps: now that we can buy directly in China, go and see the prices, they are not so low "the bottom" after I ignore the coef that the Chinese do ... The best is to look for a manufacturer on alibaba by playing it blue but this takes time ...
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Re: The industrial obsolescence, history of deception




by Christophe » 29/12/17, 14:29

The area where this margin "like pigs" (coef. 10 or more, so we can say it) is in the ready-to-wear ...

Why do you think that 3 out of 5 shops in city centers (and therefore the most expensive locations) are ready-to-wear shops ... and that they can afford -70 or -90% during sales periods. .

I have never seen a smartphone sold at -70% ...
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Re: The industrial obsolescence, history of deception




by Remundo » 29/12/17, 15:01

I was not targeting you particularly.

But indeed, with a cascade of intermediate sellers + various taxes (customs, VAT), we arrive at factors 10. Personally it bothers me to pay 10X the factory exit price which already contains the manufacturer's margin.

In addition I do not like these objects like gadgets and made abroad that go out of fashion and lose a lot of values ​​... They give me ... buttons! : Mrgreen:
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Re: The industrial obsolescence, history of deception




by Christophe » 29/12/17, 15:11

10x it is exaggerated I also find but as I said it concerns especially the ready to wear ...

Although I never knew the ex-works price of the cars ... Maybe your brand new Golf GTE has a price between 5 and 10 ... and there you buy it directly from the factory via 1 only intermediary ...

But you are not reasoning well: you do not have to know the factory or cost price. As an end consumer either the price suits you or it does not suit you ... There is no dithering more than that! :)
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Re: The industrial obsolescence, history of deception




by Remundo » 29/12/17, 15:20

margins in the automotive industry are much smaller. Even the prestigious brands are between 10 and 20%

as for VW, it is 2,5%! Maybe on my GTE we are more at 5% because it does a bit of electronic bluff, precisely. :P

http://www.caradisiac.com/Enquete-Const ... 103647.htm

ah excuse me for not being more stupid. : Lol:
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Re: The industrial obsolescence, history of deception




by Christophe » 29/12/17, 15:34

Be careful operating margin this is NOT at all the commercial margin eh, the first is much weaker than the second !!

The proof: SEAT has a negative operating margin, PSA of less than 1% ... or seat certainly does not wind at a loss and PSA certainly does not only margin 40 cents for 100 € of turnover !!

A company that makes 20% of operating margin can very well make a commercial coefficient of 5 to 10, it all depends on other charges and operating costs ...

5 to 10 coefficient means a commercial margin of 500 to 1000% ... based on the cost price excluding tax. Be careful with the%, you have to stay in comparable benchmarks ...

If, like the operating margin, the commercial margin was divided by the turnover then a commercial margin of 300% (what I call coef. 3 above) would be in the "only" 60% ...

Verification:

Commercial coefficient (shameful !!! bouhhuhuhuhu the scammers!) Of 3:

10 € HT PURCHASE
20 € HT MARGIN
30 € HT SALE
36 € TTC SALE at 20% VAT

Turnover = 36 €
Commercial margin = 20 € = 300% based on the purchase price = 20/30 = 67% based on the turnover excluding tax or 55% on the turnover including tax ... like it's less scammer than 300% all of a sudden ... yet it's the same thing! : Cheesy:

https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marge_op%C3%A9rationnelle

Sorry to disappoint you but I bet your ex-factory GTE was worth less than 2 times the price including tax that you paid for it :) therefore 200% commercial margin based on the purchase price (at least ... ah bastards !!)

ps: I am also thinking as a con (ahahhaha) ... but what I meant is that you can't control everything ...
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Re: The industrial obsolescence, history of deception




by Remundo » 29/12/17, 16:47

yeah maybe the GTE is worth 2 times less at the factory than at the dealership ... it would be very interesting to know it elsewhere. There are still goods in a GTE ... it is not a soap.

I just wanted to show that making cars isn't as lucrative as making electronic gadgets.

but at least my GTE is really useful and economical and long-lasting (I hope to use it over at least 10 years), 3 adjectives that hardly apply with the ouch fion. : Mrgreen:
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Re: The industrial obsolescence, history of deception




by Did67 » 29/12/17, 17:00

I think that as long as we don't define the different prices, we can write anything.

What is the factory cost of GTE? The cost of material + labor? + depreciation of the factory? + RetD fees? + promotion costs? + the costs of maintaining a stock of parts? + transport costs and provision in the concession? + amortization of the concession?

Should we put the costs of training manpower, etc ...

For your information, 7 or 8 years ago, when I bought my C1, I "cooked" the commercial. On his computer, he sold me a C1 that was not yet manufactured - options, colors, etc. all of this is done just in time. He "guaranteed" me (word of salesman, what is it worth?) That the concession had a margin of 300 euros. I suppose after having paid the factory, the transport, etc ... I bought it 6 euros (on sale - recovery of a car over X years old, government premium at the time). I believe the list price was around 990 euros.
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Re: The industrial obsolescence, history of deception




by Christophe » 30/12/17, 01:54

Remundo wrote:yeah maybe the GTE is worth 2 times less at the factory than at the dealership ... it would be very interesting to know it elsewhere. There are still goods in a GTE ... it is not a soap.


When I told you that I never knew how to find the cost price of a car is that the info is well hidden ... :) after we can look at the balance sheets ... as they are listed companies for many they are public ...

Remundo wrote:I just wanted to show that making cars isn't as lucrative as making electronic gadgets.

but at least my GTE is really useful and economical and long-lasting (I hope to use it over at least 10 years), 3 adjectives that hardly apply with the ouch fion. : Mrgreen:


Well, you haven't shown anything but assumed for the moment
...

How much do Apple and Samsung earn per employee? Are we basing on EBE for example? Otherwise we simply find their operating margin ... the concern is that they relocate much more so is it relevant?

I think the difference is not so great: the car manufacturers are also gorging themselves well ... it only has to see how VW bought other important groups in a few years ...

Ah also specify that a car is paid 2 times ... once for the purchase and once for the maintenance (for those who go to the end with) ... the manufacturers also gain a lot on financing. .
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Re: The industrial obsolescence, history of deception




by Christophe » 30/12/17, 02:01

Did67 wrote:I think that as long as we don't define the different prices, we can write anything.


Showing the profitability of a company is the interest of a balance sheet.

Without being in the accounting department of a company, you can only write anything ... or make broad assumptions ...

The manufacturers' balance sheets are public ... perhaps not the complete detailed balance sheet but at least the main figures ...

Ps: 10 for a C000 is perhaps an indication that they are doing well anyway ...
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