Eco-friendly wood dryer humidifier

Consumption and sustainable and responsible diet tips daily to reduce energy and water consumption, waste ... Eat: preparations and recipes, find healthy food, seasonal and local conservation information food ...
bernardd
Econologue expert
Econologue expert
posts: 2278
Registration: 12/12/09, 10:10
x 1




by bernardd » 08/05/10, 22:35

dedeleco wrote:No, because according to what you do precise, calculate the minimum work in PV (integral) and you find that a perfect pump needs energy, and in addition the vacuum pumps are not perfect, a lot of energy so that vacuum (the KW for 10 to 100 liters of vacuum limited by degassing), or nothing !!!!


A random pump: 4mn at 350W to lower a 20l enclosure to 2mbar. Or less than 120Wh per 100l: it is nothing compared to the calorific energy saved if it were necessary to provide the calorific energy by heating to 60 or 80 ° C.

It is a question of drying crushed biomass to prepare pellets.
Last edited by bernardd the 08 / 05 / 10, 23: 39, 1 edited once.
0 x
See you soon !
bernardd
Econologue expert
Econologue expert
posts: 2278
Registration: 12/12/09, 10:10
x 1




by bernardd » 08/05/10, 22:43

Ahmed wrote:If you have to spend energy and deploy sophisticated equipment for this (an enclosure large enough to be operational and solid enough to withstand atmospheric pressure ...), this is completely illogical.


By the density reached and the "vitrification" of the cellulose, the pellet guarantees low humidity (otherwise it is broken up ... and we see that we are buying water) and a low volume, as well as a homogeneity of product, and allows simple automation of combustion, regulated by the flow of material.

Therefore, it allows to use all kinds of biomass that would otherwise be thrown away.
0 x
See you soon !
dedeleco
Econologue expert
Econologue expert
posts: 9211
Registration: 16/01/10, 01:19
x 10




by dedeleco » 09/05/10, 02:51

A random pump: 4mn at 350W to lower a 20l enclosure to 2mbar. Or less than 120Wh per 100l: it is nothing compared to the calorific energy saved if it were necessary to provide the calorific energy by heating to 60 or 80 ° C.

It is a question of drying crushed biomass to prepare pellets.

Breathtaking !!
An enclosure that air of 20L is 20X1,3g) 26g of air without water !!
100l is 130g of air without water to dry !!!
100 liters of wood or 50kilos to dry at 50% humidity is 25 liters of water or 25kilos, to evaporate by pumping to give 25m3 (at random) of steam (not 100litres) and therefore (at random) 25kilos / 130g = 210 or 20m3 on 100L = 200 times more energy to consume (randomly because there is no point in wasting my time calculating the exact PV with a poor-performance pump, the best root pump!)
Even at 25% wet, it is 100 times more.
Finally it is useless to heat to 80 ° C, but to send dry air for a long time on a finely divided wood to evaporate. If the air is completely dry, the drying is enormous at 20 ° C, even at 0 ° C if the air is completely dry (freeze-drying) !!! (verifiable by east wind coming from Siberia in winter)
Air can be dried by cooling a surface to condense water.
I repeat, a solar dryer is very good and not tiring and economical !!!
Another basic problem is that after drying, following elements of the hygroscopic salt type (such as sea salt), the wood takes up the humidity of the ambient air !!!!

Finally I think more and more that we can make stoves similar to those with pellets, not too expensive, but accepting a wide range of shredded wood, with a little imagination instead of having an armada of standards making captive with the granules !!!
0 x
User avatar
chatelot16
Econologue expert
Econologue expert
posts: 6960
Registration: 11/11/07, 17:33
Location: Angouleme
x 264




by chatelot16 » 09/05/10, 18:18

vacuum drying is no miracle

of course in the vacuum the water boils at low temperature, but the vacuum pump pumps mostly steam! and at what temperature does the steam come out of the pump? at more than 100 °! this is not a performance defect: it is the principle of mechanical vapor compression: to bring steam at low pressure to atmospheric pressure it puts it at 100 °

so the balance is exactly the same as if we heated the wood, except that the vacuum pump is more complicated than a simple heating
0 x
User avatar
chatelot16
Econologue expert
Econologue expert
posts: 6960
Registration: 11/11/07, 17:33
Location: Angouleme
x 264




by chatelot16 » 09/05/10, 18:24

bernardd wrote:
dedeleco wrote:No, because according to what you do precise, calculate the minimum work in PV (integral) and you find that a perfect pump needs energy, and in addition the vacuum pumps are not perfect, a lot of energy so that vacuum (the KW for 10 to 100 liters of vacuum limited by degassing), or nothing !!!!


A random pump: 4mn at 350W to lower a 20l enclosure to 2mbar. Or less than 120Wh per 100l: it is nothing compared to the calorific energy saved if it were necessary to provide the calorific energy by heating to 60 or 80 ° C.

It is a question of drying crushed biomass to prepare pellets.


a vacuum pump does not consume much to vacuum an empty box: but if there is damp wood inside which makes steam it will require a much more powerful pump to pump this steam

I worked on vacuum ovens for drying wood: it is not the most economical way: it is good for drying very quickly when you are in a hurry and you are ready to pay the price
0 x
dedeleco
Econologue expert
Econologue expert
posts: 9211
Registration: 16/01/10, 01:19
x 10




by dedeleco » 09/05/10, 19:20

We fully agree.
See solar drying on econology !!!
0 x
bernardd
Econologue expert
Econologue expert
posts: 2278
Registration: 12/12/09, 10:10
x 1




by bernardd » 10/05/10, 12:48

Why so much vehemence on this subject?

I actually looked at solar energy, and storage of water heated by vacuum collectors is a minimum.

It remains to be seen how to optimize the drying phase. And I found very little technical information on the subject.

In gross drying by heating, it is between 683Wh / kg (at 20mbar) and 626Wh / kg (at 1bar), latent heat of vaporization of water, to which must be added the heating energy of liquid water up to 'at 100 ° C if one remains at atmospheric pressure.

Using a refrigerating machine + vacuum, the references indicated above are between 150 and 250Wh / kg: rather consistent with a cop of 3.

Using dry air is of course a solution, it must still be dried, then you need a refrigerating machine.

Lowering the pressure in the drying chamber is interesting because it will facilitate the exit of the water taken from the mass of sawdust.

When the figure of 1000WH which was advanced to empty an air chamber of 100l, what I saw is rather 10 times less.

But I don't see why you have to compress the water vapor by heating it to 100 ° C? It should condense fairly quickly, as soon as the pressure rises a little or a cold zone dedicated to this effect is created, which should be done to dry the air anyway. There are also adsorbers, but I haven't explored this route yet, because we have to dry them afterwards :-)

Having a vacuum silo prevents sawdust from regaining moisture during storage.

This also eliminates any risk of fire due to lack of oxygen: the risk of fire is a significant risk in any area with strong flammable dust.
Last edited by bernardd the 10 / 05 / 10, 14: 04, 1 edited once.
0 x
See you soon !
User avatar
Flytox
Moderator
Moderator
posts: 14141
Registration: 13/02/07, 22:38
Location: Bayonne
x 839




by Flytox » 10/05/10, 13:17

Hello fair

lejustemilieu wrote:Cool wood drying:
http://www.holzmiete.de/waldfrisch/


It is cute this pile of log.

Image

But even imitate a cabin, as much as it can be used as a cabin by children or grandchildren. It will therefore be necessary to be hollow, (so that they can play the small merchant : Mrgreen:) ... which will facilitate air circulation and therefore the drying of the wood.
0 x
Reason is the madness of the strongest. The reason for the less strong it is madness.
[Eugène Ionesco]
http://www.editions-harmattan.fr/index. ... te&no=4132
dedeleco
Econologue expert
Econologue expert
posts: 9211
Registration: 16/01/10, 01:19
x 10




by dedeleco » 10/05/10, 15:27

Nice heap and nice storage work.
Having a vacuum silo, this prevents the sawdust from regaining moisture during storage

For a few cubic meters in winter you need see the price of the empty container of a few m3 resistant to the forces of 1Kgp / cm2 or 10 tonnes / m2 !!!
Good for NASA cosmonauts in trials but a house ??????
The vacuum requires large and little justified means.
As much to keep in an airtight atmosphere, already expensive, like granules !!
Vacuum drying log by log in a small container is possible, and I would like to see it, for fun !!! With the frozen log and the vane pump overflowing with liquid water mixed with oil, condensed in the vane pump !!! (not at all designed for that !!)

We heat a little because it is the simplest to have dry air, from 20 to 30 or 40 ° C is enough !!!!.
In winter with a very cold east wind, the air is dry without energy !!! and it dries the logs even in the cold (if condensation is avoided) !!!

CaCl2 (second salt in the sea) dries the air very well and we recycle it by heating it a little (or in the sun) !!
http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chlorure_de_calcium
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Calcium_chloride

We can take the Lithium salt !!
We can take the zeolite or desiccants !!!
http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dessiccation
and the links at the end !!
http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lyophilisation
We can freeze wood like mushrooms !!!
this link clearly indicates the difficulties in drying thoroughly:
http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/S%C3%A9chage
http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/D%C3%A9shydratation
But the sun is much simpler and more efficient !!!
0 x
User avatar
chatelot16
Econologue expert
Econologue expert
posts: 6960
Registration: 11/11/07, 17:33
Location: Angouleme
x 264




by chatelot16 » 10/05/10, 23:02

bernardd wrote:But I don't see why you have to compress the water vapor by heating it to 100 ° C? It should condense fairly quickly, as soon as the pressure rises a little


bin no pure water vapor at atmospheric pressure condenses at 100 ° not before

a little water vapor diluted in air can condense at 20 ° because it is sufficiently diluted and its partial pressure is low

but for the vacuum pump all the air is pumped from the start: there is only steam

I saw a vacuum dryer work: you can immerse the vacuum pump outlet pipe in water it condenses at 100%, and this pipe is well above 100 °

more exactly I do not immerse the entire pipe, because it is 120mm in diameter and it exits a jet of steam of hell, I am satisfied to derive part of the flow in a small silicone pipes
0 x

Back to "Sustainable consumption: responsible consumption, diet tips and tricks"

Who is online ?

Users browsing this forum : No registered users and 169 guests