Calories, diet and sport: a review of human energy

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by Christophe » 02/11/10, 17:02

Obamot wrote:Nope but! : Cheesy: ... you continue to answer from one thread to the other diwouar : Cheesy: : Cheesy: : Cheesy:


Ah no I had edited a previous message, nuance :)

So we continue here about nutrition and energy ...
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by Obamot » 02/11/10, 17:08

Ok, me too it happens to edit ... : Mrgreen:

Christophe wrote:
Obamot wrote:Especially when I read this:
Christophe wrote:Diet, calories and energy balance of man

We can do everything ... except recommend dieting!


Also answered on the other subject:

Christophe on the other subject wrote:We must take the term diet as a diet and not a diet to lose weight.

However, marketing and popular thought currently assimilate the word "diet" to, of course, its most well-known form in our overfed societies: the "weight loss diet" ...

A) Diet or diet aimed at losing weight, it doesn't make much difference. The semantics always suggests a strong idea of ​​"constraint" which goes with it, to the contrary end!

B) If instead of the "regime" you want to talk about "Food bowl"... that has nothing more to do, since the latter does not correspond at all to individual "performances" (although there is a certain causal relationship) but rather to "needs" governed by physiology and metabolic functioning which do not belong to a particular INDIVIDUAL and in any case not to a statistic! So don't try to make it a "standard" or a "general", because it doesn't work that way anyway.

C) A food provided in a diet, and absorbed according to criteria which escape the field of decision of the one who ingests it, can turn into poison! (Cardiac arrest in doping cases). When in reality, they would be supposed to improve performance ... a priori.
It is the same for foods eaten for "convenience", they can also turn into poison! And also end up being fatal ... If the metabolism of the person who ingests it does not demand it. By way of example: "that this constitutes an excess for him".

Christophe on the other subject wrote:The anorexics or convalescents also do diets in cures ... but "high calorie".

D) Pay attention to which words we use. It all depends on whether it is:
- a treatment (ie cure) in which case this corresponds to a care strategy for a fixed period, planned to give the body time to overcome certain "stresses" and bring it back to "health". But never in a cure, there should only be given one alternative to a "patient" ...
- it is precisely in cases of the "anorexia / bulimia" type that the "cures" fail. Anorexia / bulimia has only a distant relationship with nutrition itself, if I'm not mistaken it is more of an "emotional issue" around food ... (by way of example , but something that differs according to each person affected by this "disorder").

Christophe on the other subject wrote:However, marketing and popular thought currently assimilate the word "diet" to, of course, its most well-known form in our overfed societies: the "weight loss diet" ...

E) ... oh well? And why then would the word "organic" in popular consciousness not be associated with a "healthy" diet, then?
However, what is at the heart of the matter is not that. We must not take the problem by the end of the telescope which seems "to go well for you" by thinking that it will be relevant for others ...!

F) More than ever, I am wary of normative attempts around humans. So maybe if you want to approach the issue from the angle of "consumption", it is possible to say that "potentially" doing this, or that, can possibly lead to such and such an expected result with the downstream from subject". There, yes, it is acceptable ... But it is very variable from one individual to another of similar constitution ...

What you have to understand is that normalizing this area can pose a real threat to those who indulge in it, you should not speculate around the performance, about everything related: food, sleep, sports performance (see in the military), resistance to stress or whatever ... Either anything that can lead a "subject" to fall into an infernal cycle of self-maintenance of a pathology that can s to prove emerging! There can be mortal danger for a patient!
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by clasou » 03/11/10, 06:41

Hello,

Obamot wrote:"Diet or diet aimed at losing weight, it doesn't make much difference. The semantics always suggest a strong idea of" constraint "which goes it, to the opposite end!"


Not at all agree, for me all depends on whether you are rather sheep or panurge.
Let me explain.

Already to do technical :) in the car you can be at high or low speed, and the constraint is different.

For me the diet is an optimization.
In fact let's say more a choice of life according to criteria that can be varied according to different criteria.
The person who wants to lose weight does an analysis of the situation and judges that in relation to those they want, they are no longer in phase.
The parallel I take an electric bike because the whole is 100 kg and in the car I make 1.2t it is not a constraint but a choice.

The vegetarian only makes a choice and not a constraint, only because he judges that a certain behavior and say harmful is his way of thinking and his well being.
These can be induced by the fact that it is against the fact of feeding on its similar animal. But it can also be because it takes 9 kg of cereals to generate 1 kg of meat, and that calorically much more The world could be fed with the 9 kg, rather than the 1 kg, not counting water consumption.

But it is only a choice, of course for those who look at you and judge you it is a constraint. Friends, journalist .......

Now if people think for themselves, rather than reacting to those the neighborhood might think if their behavior changes.
I'm more of a shepherd :)
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by Obamot » 03/11/10, 17:08

Ouch, there you tackle several related questions, indeed which deserved to be approached ... I admit that I pushed the plug a little far, notwithstanding the fact that a priori to approach "beast" questions of calories seems banal . It allows me to clarify certain points (which appear from other threads, and not necessarily here ...)

clasou wrote:
Obamot wrote:"Diet or diet aimed at losing weight, it doesn't make much difference. The semantics always suggest a strong idea of" constraint "which goes it, to the opposite end!"


Not at all agree, for me all depends on whether you are rather sheep or panurge.

Sorry, but that! It is not debatable, the facts and the practice go against this reasoning, or in any case, it is a partial vision. If you have the solution, you have to give it to us right away!

Here are some pieces of evidence:
- who does not know the history of these patients (sometimes even in his own family ...) who do not follow the "treatment" prescribed by the doctor ... and who sometimes, end up passing from life to death, fault for not having done it ...

- If already, the doctor / patient relationship of trust is not enough ... imagine what can result in a table that projects the range of a "standard" in the course of a forum...

- For a long time I happened to study the best way to "give advice" in terms of prevention (it's kind of my job ... : Cheesy: ) to come to the conclusion, that except "the culture of prevention", practically nothing works ...

... and sometimes, even that is not enough ... as long as the message is repeated too often! It may even mean the opposite of its original purpose. I take the example of the word "health", which has been rehashed for over thirty years, wrongly and through. Finally, to say that it was "good for health" eventually led to a repulsion which suggested the opposite ... (It is experience, in the medical world! ... dixit Dr. Jean-Charles Rielle, in particular. )

clasou wrote:Let me explain.

Already to do technical :) in the car you can be at high or low speed, and the constraint is different.

... in view of the above, of the emotional stake that there is around food, of the versatility of the cognitive behavioral aspect which results from it, you will understand the particular aversion I have, to do parallels between a motor and the organism of the human body, which is not exclusively a mechanical set of thermochemical processes operating together. (Lol)

clasou wrote:For me diet is an optimization

... well you always use the word "diet", but anyway ... it doesn't work! In every sense of the term!

But basically, it is an erroneous approach.
1) Optimization is not done by us, but by the organization that does it ...
2) He is the one who, during stress, a downright ... restores things!
3) All we can do is offer the organism something according to its intrinsic needs (and not necessarily relative to a "norm", or to what works in another person). Apart from telling someone that he must eat spinach because he lacks iron, is not enough to be sure that he will eat it, especially if he does not like it! (Example of a real-life case, where the subject ate only meat + pasta / or rice and exclusively eggplants ...)
4) once you have sorted out the “right information for you”, it is a matter of setting priorities. There is a lot of confusion in the information circulating about "good practices": for example, drinking 2l. of water per day will be of no use to a cancer patient, or even to a healthy ...
5) The right choice is good, you still have to want it!
clasou wrote:In fact let's say one more is of life according to criteria that can be varied according to different criteria.

Not very understandable, but here we are talking, it seems, of the same thing! It's the word "choice" that changes everything! This choice is INDIVIDUAL and not prescriptive !!!

clasou wrote:The person who wants to lose weight does an analysis of the situation and judges that in relation to those they want, they are no longer in phase.

Oulah ... but if it was that simple ... (see above).
First of all, not all those who wish to lose weight have "analyzed the situation", they sometimes do it out of opportunism (the summer season approaching, to find the line when you are on the beach ... 'pragmatic' approach, the analysis is lacking ... "if ... then ...") It's not "from the knowledge of the parts which leads to that of the whole"

Then, how to see "That we are no longer in phase"? I know a lot of doctors who alert their patients to the dangers of cigarettes, but who are themselves addicted to them! And still, when there is no addiction, one must not make "resistance to change".
The point is that "choice" is only one step. Then, you still need to have a good source of information to analyze what there is to do and find a compromise ground ...

clasou wrote:The vegetarian only makes a choice and not a constraint, only because he judges that a certain behavior and say harmful is his way of thinking and his well being.

So you show us that it is not "normative"!

clasou wrote:These can be induced by the fact that it is against the fact of feeding on its similar animal. But it can also be because it takes 9 kg of cereals to generate 1 kg of meat, and that calorically much more The world could be fed with the 9 kg, rather than the 1 kg, not counting water consumption.

Benwoui, all that is very good, you also prove that it is not "normative"!

clasou wrote:But it is only a choice, of course for those who look at you and judge you it is a constraint. Friends, journalist .......

Who says choice, says responsablilithe and not liabilitytion. It's not a question of status ... come on!

clasou wrote:Now if people think for themselves, rather than reacting to those the neighborhood might think if their behavior changes.
I'm more of a shepherd :)
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That's very good! And even ... become your own caregiver!
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by Christophe » 04/11/10, 09:32

Uh we would not deviate a bit from the energy question there?

: Mrgreen:

Still, I was right about the use of the word diet :)
And again, I'm not talking about a banana diet ... : Mrgreen: : Mrgreen:
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by clasou » 04/11/10, 09:50

ello,
It may deviate.
I think that christophe talked about diet we feel, the total of what we eat in a day and that we could quantify in calories.

Me the relationship between regime is constrained, wanted to make the link between a car can roll in 2 nd at 2000 or 5000 laps, a person make the same journey by walking running can or quickly.
So from a physical point of view there are different constraints, weight sell, habit ......


When I talk about optimization, I'm talking about the body as a machine that has, as you say needs, I'm just trying to know which ones to bring to it.

by trying to give it a "better quality energy with its properties, sprouted seeds homemade bread made from whole organic flour, culture without pesticides without insecticide.
short and no tiller to preserve the well-being of the soil fauna. ect.

hence the story of panurge.
I don't do that, because someone supposedly authorized says it to me, or tf1 book or neighbor.
I am only a machine whose performance I hope to improve.
"well-being longevity, understanding interest for what surrounds him.
You are not spy I hope :)
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by Obamot » 04/11/10, 10:56

clasou wrote:hello, When I talk about optimization, I speak of the body as machine who have, as you say needs, I'm just trying to know which ones to bring to him.

... grrrr! : Mrgreen:

clasou wrote:by trying to give it a "better quality energy with its properties, sprouted seeds homemade bread made from whole organic flour, culture without pesticides without insecticide.
short and no tiller to preserve the well-being of the soil fauna. ect.

In any case you realize that we are not machines : Mrgreen:

clasou wrote:hence the story of panurge.
I don't do that, because someone supposedly authorized says it to me, or tf1 book or neighbor.
I am only a machine whose performance I hope to improve.
"well-being longevity, understanding interest for what surrounds him.

But everyone does what he likes, likes, likes ...

clasou wrote:You are not spy I hope :)

... no I don't smoke a joint, just the moket, to calm my nerves : Mrgreen:
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by Obamot » 04/11/10, 11:04

Christophe wrote:Uh we would not deviate a bit from the energy question there?

: Mrgreen:

Still, I was right about the use of the word diet :)
And again, I'm not talking about a banana diet ... : Mrgreen: : Mrgreen:


I just wanted to test your patience : Cheesy: : Cheesy: : Cheesy:

It's bad? : Mrgreen:

Oki, let's go back to the subject!

Unfortunately on the biological level, medical teams have tested the ideal contribution to give to an athlete in the niche of what Clasou describes:

"Better quality energy with its properties, sprouted seeds homemade bread made from whole organic flour, culture without pesticides without insecticides.
short and no tiller to preserve the well-being of the soil fauna. ect.

Until now, we have to admit that we are less efficient when we eat as we should properly! This is explained very well out of any context alluding to the "affective" issues placed in food, by the fact that "physiologically" the body does not like stress too much ... and therefore it expects that we listen to it and that we play sports ... but a little dodgy! And especially with pleasure ... Those who force in sport, beyond their limits in the competition, are missing the point! Moreover, very often the end of the career of "high level athletes" (of c ...) is a medical course strewn with reconstructive surgery operations, it is well known! (When it is still possible to do so ...).
We also see other phenomena, such as sudden weight gain in former athletes (ie David Douillet ... and many others)
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by Obamot » 04/11/10, 11:56

Christophe wrote:Diet, calories and energy balance of the man: nutrients are indicated on all agroindustrial foods (except fruit and vegetable and bulk) but what is actually vis-à-vis our body?

The contributions of agro-industrial foods? Apart from fruits, legumes and other "loose" cereals ... it would be better not to touch it! On the other hand, as it has been attempted to explain, the performances are not the same according to the mode of food chosen.

Christophe wrote:When we eat 1 Calories (in fact, energetically, it's a Kilocalories but the term Kilo must not do well in the nutrition books ...), how much do we assimilate?

It varies from one subject to another, you just have to see that there are people who can eat without stopping and not getting fat, and others who store everything they absorb ...

Christophe wrote:How many do we use (a man at rest emits 70W in thermal form permanently)? How many do we stock? How much energy can an average body store per day (fat production)?

Ok, if you mean by that, someone who "metabolizes" properly, it would possibly be possible to derive a "range" of values ​​from it, but it will have to be adapted to its own food bolus, which can still vary according to the seasons, the temperature and of course its physical activity rate!

It would therefore be necessary to make a table with multiple variables, and if we did it honestly, we would not end up with a "practical and easy to read" table ...

Christophe wrote:What is a man's muscle performance? What is the maximum thermal power emitted by a man? Etc., etc...

... on the other hand it is a false problem. Because from one human being to another - always in subjects who metabolize correctly - the corpulence and the way in which a body "compensates" is drastically different, without us really knowing why a priori (we have to dig ... case by case...). Reason why women should not never try to look like top models, but accept to leave their body as it is ... with the fats that are "clean" to it! Every person does not store the same thing and genetically our hormones do not send messages according to a "standard pattern"! (lol)

Christophe wrote:In other words: this subject will have to try to answer the following question, how is the energy of the diet used and what is the energy balance of a human being (and by extension of animal propulsion)?

Notwithstanding the questions relating to individual metabolism (you had however warned us ... : Cheesy: : Cheesy: : Cheesy: ) this question is really interesting. There must probably be several clinical studies on the subject. The problem is to find one "good", made according to a realistic protocol and which takes into account the points I raised (I do not know any, because in principle, those who finance such studies have financial interests behind, so it is not always relevant ... You have to see the context, and what the study "would try to prove"). At least I give a track in which direction to look ...

We should therefore begin to define a "good protocol", taking into account all the multiple variables related to this subject.

But, if one finds one "valid", it is still to be taken with a grain of salt (as usual) as very general lines and not as absolute rules ...

Christophe wrote:I recently bought a bike computer that calculates calories burned and the fat equivalence ...

... let's say that if you wanted "general" values, you would already have them! It seems to me that I roughly answered "to the rest" ...
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by Flytox » 04/11/10, 20:14

Before continuing further in the calculations, the good curve...

Image

Image
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